Question Regarding "Collectible" Wines

A wine is the C word for two reasons:

1. It will be better, properly stored, in the future.

1. The price of the wine has been known retail for a much higher price(if you can find it) So a bottle of Ch Petrus 1982 at release, now costs ,500 in 2007.

Joe wrote on Tue, 3 Apr 2007 09:45:59 -0400:

JBR> 2. The price of the wine has been known retail for a much JBR> higher price(if you can find it) So a $58 bottle of Ch JBR> Petrus 1982 at release, now costs $1,500 in 2007.

I suppose there is no one answer but how can one tell if a "collectible" wine has reached its peak? Another question might be: what is the oldest wine reported to have been at its peak when drunk? I'm not inclined to do the experimentation myself even if I could afford to do so :-)

James Silverton Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.comcast.not

I'd hazard a guess that the oldest collectible wines are almost certainly going to be Madeiras, since 18th C. Madeiras are still available and drinking well by all accounts.

As to the larger question of when any given wine has reached its "peak," you have to rely on secondhand information available either on online forums like this one or its web-based equivalents, or on online databases such as one can find on eBob or in cellartracker.

Mark Lipton

Mark wrote on Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:31:04 -0400:

??>> I suppose there is no one answer but how can one tell if a ??>> "collectible" wine has reached its peak? Another question ??>> might be: what is the oldest wine reported to have been at ??>> its peak when drunk? I'm not inclined to do the ??>> experimentation myself even if I could afford to do so :-)

ML> I'd hazard a guess that the oldest collectible wines are ML> almost certainly going to be Madeiras, since 18th C. ML> Madeiras are still available and drinking well by all ML> accounts.

Thanks for the answer! I wonder if I were to narrow the choice to non-fortified table wines, what would be the result? Perhaps, I should also leave out very sweet wines like Tokay.

James Silverton Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.comcast.not

Try googling for "vintage chart". Vintage charts will often also include drinking advice. For more specific and detailed advice you will need to read notes written by experts and/or other amateurs on the wine concerned. Bear in mind that different bottles kept the same way wil mature differently, the same bottle will mature differently in different conditions, and the concept of peak is a matter of personal taste. So it is not an exact science. Which is why there is no simple answer to your question about the oldest wine reported to be at its peak. But 30 years would not be regarded as too old for a top wine.

If you are planning to get into this business of aging wine, James, I'd advise getting a bigger cellar than the one you have in mind. Think how often you are going to be drinking a bottle from your cellar, and how long on average you will be storing wines there. And make sure it is suitable for long term storage. For this you do not need 2 temperatures. I suspect the one you were looking at, which holds wine at drinking temperatures rather than a cellar temp, is more for shorter term storage.

Oh, and I have this thing about people who say thay "collect" wine. To me, people collect things for the pleasure of ownership, and like to have full sets, and keep them forever. I gain very little pleasure from the ownership - I store my wines reluctantly, and look forward to the day when I can drink them. But that's a semantic thing - sorry if I offended anyone.

Steve wrote on Tue, 03 Apr 2007 18:27:42 +0100:

??>> Mark wrote on Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:31:04 -0400: ??>>

??>>>> I suppose there is no one answer but how can one tell if ??>>>> a "collectible" wine has reached its peak? Another ??>>>> question might be: what is the oldest wine reported to ??>>>> have been at its peak when drunk? I'm not inclined to do ??>>>> the experimentation myself even if I could afford to do ??>>>> so :-) ??>>

ML>>> I'd hazard a guess that the oldest collectible wines are ML>>> almost certainly going to be Madeiras, since 18th C. ML>>> Madeiras are still available and drinking well by all ML>>> accounts. ??>>

??>> Thanks for the answer! I wonder if I were to narrow the ??>> choice to non-fortified table wines, what would be the ??>> result? Perhaps, I should also leave out very sweet wines ??>> like Tokay.

SS> Try googling for "vintage chart". Vintage charts will SS> often also include drinking advice. For more specific and SS> detailed advice you will need to read notes written by SS> experts and/or other amateurs on the wine concerned. Bear SS> in mind that different bottles kept the same way wil mature SS> differently, the same bottle will mature differently in SS> different conditions, and the concept of peak is a matter SS> of personal taste. So it is not an exact science. Which SS> is why there is no simple answer to your question about the SS> oldest wine reported to be at its peak. But 30 years would SS> not be regarded as too old for a top wine.

SS> If you are planning to get into this business of aging SS> wine, James, I'd advise getting a bigger cellar than the SS> one you have in mind. Think how often you are going to be SS> drinking a bottle from your cellar, and how long on average SS> you will be storing wines there. And make sure it is SS> suitable for long term storage. For this you do not need 2 SS> temperatures. I suspect the one you were looking at, which SS> holds wine at drinking temperatures rather than a cellar SS> temp, is more for shorter term storage.

SS> Oh, and I have this thing about people who say thay SS> "collect" wine. To me, people collect things for the SS> pleasure of ownership, and like to have full sets, and keep SS> them forever. I gain very little pleasure from the SS> ownership - I store my wines reluctantly, and look forward SS> to the day when I can drink them. But that's a semantic SS> thing - sorry if I offended anyone.

Thanks for the informative answer! I have no intention of expanding my "cellar" for collection purposes. My one experiment in aging a St. Emilion Grand Cru was less than successful, probably because the temperature varied too much. In fact, I may even have a smaller cellar in the near future :-) I was simply interested in knowing what has been reported.

James Silverton Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.comcast.not

Or maybe the wine was not particularly ageworthy. Grand Cru is a big deal in Burgundy, but means a lot less in St. Emilion.

Steve wrote on Tue, 03 Apr 2007 20:32:49 +0100:

??>> My one experiment ??>> in aging a St. Emilion Grand Cru was less than successful, ??>> probably because the temperature varied too much. In ??>> fact, I may even have a smaller cellar in the near future ??>> :-)

SS> Or maybe the wine was not particularly ageworthy. Grand SS> Cru is a big deal in Burgundy, but means a lot less in St. SS> Emilion.

Interesting! I must do some more reading. Thanks again!

James Silverton Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.comcast.not

Actually, a bit of both, depending on the source. Some wine, if stored properly with proof of storage, can increase in value - some, that folk might like to think will, won't. It depends on the market at the time of sale and finding the right auction-house/buyer. OTOH, "collectible," can often mean, just as you state at the end, "the wine should age well and should, therefore, be kept for a while." Wine Specator usually terms these "Cellar Selections," of something similar.

One question that one must ask of themselves is, do I *like* older wines? Unfortunately, the only way to tell is to drink some, and they are not often that easy to find, or command higher prices. If one prefers the elements of youth, then aging wine is a useless exercise. I'd suggest attempting to do some tastings of older, properly stored wines. Often, restaurants or distributors will do wine dinners, with verticals of a particular wine, say

1980-1990. These are well worth the $ (usually), as they expose you, and your palate, to aged wines. If possible, try some big Cal-Cabs, some Bdx (both whites and reds) and some Burgs (both whites and reds). Caveat: you may find that you LOVE them, and then you are hooked and need to kick up the old wine budget. Or, you may find them less fruity, more nuanced, than you like, and maybe even unappealing to you. This will save you $, but a well-aged white (or red) Burg, or, especially red Bdx. is something to be enjoyed.

Hunt

Since storage is apparently important in collectible wine I don't think I'll be doing any wine collecting other than picking up bottles at Costco for relatively short term. I don't trust myself with a valuable wine storing it. Maybe someday, if I ever get to the point of knowing what I'm doing, I'll try collecting. :0)

Do ordinary people have much success with collecting wines? I mean what are the chances of someone like me learning how to store wine and then buying a "collectible" wine, aging it for a decade or so, then selling it for 10 times the original price?

Ooops. Sorry James. I was confusing you with Gary, who was also asking about buying a "cellar" earlier.

Close to zero. Wine is typically not a good investment compared to alternatives. To get the best prices you would need to buy and sell whole cases (12 botles), and have the cases stored professionally.

That's probably a good thing. I think I'm just going to drink all the wine I buy. Still, if I learn how to store properly, or reasonably well, I may try aging a bottle or two for later consumption, just for a special occasion.

You certainly should, Gary. One of the most potent arguments for having a cellar or some sort of storage facility is that many very good wines aren't at their best at the time of release from the winery; conversely, when these same wines have been properly aged they will be: a) hard to find on the retail market and b) prohibitively expensive, by and large.

You may find that aged wine is not to your taste, but I'd say that the majority of wine drinkers find at least some benefit to drinking wine that's been aged. It's certainly worth exploring.

Mark Lipton

[SNIP]

A "valuable wine," was first meant to be consumed and enjoyed. That is the best that we can give back to the winemaker, who crafted it with a bit of art, a bit of science, and a lot of luck. I doubt that many of them, the winemakers, actually produce a wine, that they intend to be a "collectible." They make it with love, to be enjoyed.

Just my guess, Hunt

Probably about the same chance as one finding a Picasso at a garage sale for US$10.

In very general terms, I think that "collecting" wines is highly over-rated. I should be about the enjoyment of said wine, and if you happen to have some, that appreciate in value, so much the better. Of my collection, I hope to drink all but one bottle, and that one (do not have a clue, as to which one it will be) will be consumed by my wife and my rowdy wino friends, upon my passing. Otherwise, I guess that my Bulldogs will inherit the cellar, and my executor will have to dispose of it.

My advice is to purchase wines that you like. If you also like them, white, or red, with a bit of age on them, then lay them down to be consumed at some date in the future. Some folk have made $ on their wines, but more folk have made $ by buying gold. Wine is like art, it may appreciate, under the right conditions, but then, it might not. I wonder about the folk, who spent big $'s on the gal touted as the "13 year old Picasso." Her works were selling for US$100K's, and it was "promised" that they were soon to be worth Millions. I have not heard of any of these investors selling for much of a profit.

Hunt

Now THAT'S a plan, and what wine should be about.

Hunt