slightly OT and LONG: Dinner at Manresa

] On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 06:09:39 +0000 (UTC), snipped-for-privacy@soda.csua.berkeley.edu ] (D. Gerasimatos) wrote: ] ] >In article , ] >Ian Hoare wrote: ] >>>

] >>>Not "food *IN* the UK" but "British food". Do you see the difference? ] >>

] >>You're surely not suggesting that all food served in these 14 chosen ] >>restaurants are from all nationalities except british? ] >

] >

] >I am. I will also posit that the wine served is also not British. ] >

] >

] >>A pity you let prejudice blind you to the facts. ] >

] >

] >What are the facts? My cookbook of traditional British recipes lists ] >"Quiche Lorraine" and "Croque Monsieur". I will credit the British for ] >recognizing good food when they see it, though. ] ] Hi ] ] quiche lorraine qualifies as good food, but "Croque Monsieur"? This is ] France's attempt to invent its own fast food, and coming up with ] something even fouler, greasier and less appealing than the real ] thing... created by some agroindustrial committee somewhere, it is ] served almost exclusively at cheap counters at train stations, or ] rather was, it has thankfully almost disappeared. ]

LOL! Do you really know the history of the croque monsieur, or are you making that up?

Typically pretty foul I'll allow -- I kind of shudder when I hear someone ordering one -- but I know a few places in Paris that do them on Poilaine with good ham and cheese, served with a green salad. Not bad bar food if you stumble across a good one.

-E

Well, I understod it is a bit like the Plowman's Lunch in England, a "traditional" dish that appeared out of nowhere because some marketing board created it...

Whatever, it is usually foul and unless you wash it down with something equally corrosive like Coke, you will get indigestion. Yes, you read it right, you HAVE to have a Coke, wine and croque monsieur will have you spending an unusual amount of time on the pot.

True, like hamburger, the idea lends itself to noble versions made with good ingredients... and I bet you the now make it "open face". Cool...

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France email link

Ian Hoare stated in part: That said, I have as little desire to visit the Fat Duck as El Bulli, from what I've seen of both."

I don't think I would go out of my way to eat at El Bulli either. I just read an article in the May 2005 issue of Smithsonian titled "Homage To The Anchovy Coast." There is a picture of grilled watermellon topped with anchovies. The text says: "standard fare for superstar chef Ferran Adria, who's likely to serve an anchovy gelato for dessert". Adria is the El Bulli chef. Everyone to their own taste, but to me such combinations are as strange as chocolate syrup served on a steak as sauce.

I wonder if any of the new generation of superstar chefs have enough skill to duplicate the classic dishes from the time of Escoffier including the classic sauces. It seems to me that the quality of chefs and restaurants has been going down nearly everywhere since the early

Reply to snipped-for-privacy@cwdjr.net .

There must be a happy medium between far out freaky cuisine and old style classic sauces.

I disagree with the quality of restaurants going down. I think that if you avoid the flashy places, you can eat much better today than 20 years ago. I cannot speak for the early 1900s (and I think you are not much older than I...).

Both in North America and in Europe, we have a huge choice of quality eateries at good QPR. I think food has never been more exciting.

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France email link

I'll say! I had a really good croque monsieur & salad combo at a little bistro on the river in Napa, California. Ian & Jacqui were over for the Thanksgiving holiday, along with their friends from the East Coast, Carol & Michael. We'd all just been to Saintsbury for a barrel tasting tour of their Chardonnays and Pinot Noirs. I don't remember the name of the place, but our food was all good and not horribly overpriced. My sandwich was made from good ham and Gruyere cheese served generously in a nice crispy sourdough bun slathered with good Dijon style mustard and mayonnaise. Yum!

Tom S

Sounds like we wil have to come to the US to experience good croque monsieur.

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France email link

I think you missed the point here, which is that neither recipe is British. How can a British cookbook include quiche lorraine?

Anyway, I am just teasing Ian about British food. It's not all bad. However, it isn't really that exciting either featuring lots of stews and soups, pudding, and sandwiches. Of course, the British eventually adopted the flavors of India, France, Italy, Spain, and the Far East into their gourmet cooking, but this these are not British inventions like 'fish and chips', 'mushy peas', and 'steak and kidney pie'.

Dimitri

Fascinating discussion Ian! You made me hungry just reading it tho' I've never had spit-roasted beef. Your mention of apple pie reminds me that the common New England accompaniment of Cheddar-type cheese is also quite usual in Yorkshire.

Hi Dimitri,

I understand that your teasing, but you have certainly named 3 delicious (or 2 anyway, one could probably argue for all sorts of origin of fish and chips) dishes.

As an example, well prepared "mushy peas with mint" are great: young peas, boiled (but not too much) with fresh mint, lightly mashed with butter, cream, salt and pepper. What better way to enjoy peas? :)

-E

] To make top class roast beef, you must have grass fed beef, not fattened up ] on barley, not given a diet of hormones or antibiotics. It should be from an ] animal of at least three or four years old that is a beef variety, such as ] Aberdeen Angus, Hereford - or Charolais or Limousin. The animal should

Or, of course, genisse Normande. Now I know what to serve when you and Jacquie come to dinner on your next trip north! :) One of our all time favorites. With this caveat: The beef should be cooked properly _in_ the yorkshire, so the fat and jiuces add all that great flavor.

Although I agree in principle about the salt, I find that if the oven is really very hot one can use a crust of wet gray guerande salt without bleeding away the juices.

Also, braised sprouts and chestnuts are a necessary accompaniment, and perhaps to lighten the whole thing that completely american dish, Waldorf Salade, in this case 'au Grandpere' because he prefered the whole thing molded up in aspic, and so we've always done this variation.

I think I can provide the Hermitage, but there are so many options. A nice earthy Pessac, an older CdP... heck even a powerful old Chinon is a great match! (And of course, with cold leftovers the next day.) This is to my mind one of the most wine friendly of meals, so long as you don't throw too much sweet fruit juice at it. :)

-E

][] ] I understand that your teasing, but you have certainly named 3 delicious

Just to point out that despite appearances to the contrary I am not a total cretin, I meant to say "you're."

-E

The best quality of beef in the US is the official grade US Prime. It must have a high degree of marbling of fat, among other things. Under one percent of US beef meets US Prime standards. For the home, you usually have to order it from a few high end compaies such as Allen Bros. in Chicago or Lobels in NYC. In addition to being of US prime grade, the beef must be properly aged. Most quality US beef is now wet aged(wraped to prevent evaporation). However tradational dry aged beef can be had from a very few top compaies. The wet aged beef has a somewhat milder taste than the dry aged which has a more nutty taste. The aging time runs from about 3 weeks to 5 weeks for the best beef. The best beef in the US usually comes from the midwest where it is fed grass and hay when it is young. However it must be fed a high corn diet near the end to reach the high standards of US prime. The Japanese breed Wagyu is now grown somewhat in the US. This requires even more special feeding to reach high quality including mash from distilleries. In short, top beef requires a special diet, at least near the end, to reach the highest quality. This is somewhat the same situation as for foie gras production, but in a much less extreme form. Although I could obtain a top prime rib roast at home, that is just too much meat for me. Thus I would order it at a restaurant instead - if I can find one of the few restaurants that serve top quality beef. For home use, I find the best cut for roasting is about the center two pound part of the best US prime tenderloin, either from the usual beef breeds or Wagyu. This should be completely trimmed of external fat. A row of truffle pieces inserted in the center helps greatly. No larding is needed for the top grade of beef, for the high degree of marbling provides plenty of fat for a tender roast.

Reply to snipped-for-privacy@cwdjr.net .

It's not too hard to find USDA prime beef at upscale grocery stores like Whole Foods, Bristol Farms, and Gelson's. I have read that most USDA prime ends up in restaurants, though.

Dimitri

Dimitri states: "It's not too hard to find USDA prime beef at upscale grocery stores like Whole Foods, Bristol Farms, and Gelson's. I have read that most USDA prime ends up in restaurants, though."

Yes you can still find US prime beef at some grocery stores, and in the past you could find it at many more. However US prime is just the starting point, and only indicates that the beef has certain technical characteristics needed for top beef. The ability of the beef buyer to select the very best prime carcass is all important. A top supplier such as Allen Bros. or Lobels selects only the very best despite the price. Some others select the cheapest so long as it is US prime. Then there is the matter of how the beef is then aged. Lobels is an expert on dry aging. Allen Bros. provides top examples of both wet and dry aged beef. Both Lobels and Allen Bros., as well as a few others, provide reliable air delivery, so your location is no longer an important factor. The stores you mention may have wonderful US prime beef - they are not in my area, so I do not know. However I have yet to find any stores in my area that have or that can special order prime beef that offers anywhere near the quality of the sources I mentioned. Of course you will pay a premium price if you want the top quality beef. But beef is fairly easy to prepare at home, so in the end you will likely pay much less than going to a restaurant that serves a lower grade beef and wines with high markups.

Reply to snipped-for-privacy@cwdjr.net .

Mark, Great review. Manresa is one my favorite restaurants in the USA. I only live a few block's from Manresa. Rick

I heard an Englishman describing the preparation of mushy peas on the radio. Basically, he dumped drained, canned peas into a dish, smashed them with a fork and added a bit of salt and pepper before heating them. His comment: "Luvley". Mine: "BLECCHH"!

Tom S

Ack. Indeed. Well, I suppose it's possible to make mashed potatoes from powder, too! :/

cheers Tom,

-E

Ah yes. A French mystery. I make a damn good mashed potatoes, but French people are AMAZED that I make my own, as though this were a complex procedure... Almost everyone here makes that disgusting mash from potato flakes you buy at the supermarket. And you thought french people were so sophisticated about food: on average, nothing is further from the truth.

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France email link

I live in an area where dry-aged prime is fairly obtainable. It is of course comparatively expensive (understandable with the cost of prime beef, the weight loss from drying, and the expense of hanging). So sometimes I buy and sometimes I go with less expensive beef.

I tend to go for the dry-aged prime for : rib roasts for a serious dinner party (as I find the 2 rib roasts generally unacceptable, need to be serving enough folks to make a 3 or

I find younger or wet-aged beef acceptable for : grilled steaks that are heavily seasoned (lik a coffee-cumin crust) steaks that are in a sauce (i.e. au poivre)

Of course there's no point in buying dry-aged for pot roast type cuts.

As to tenderloin, your point re the truffles is key. The tenderloin is as tender as its name implies, but the meat is not as flavorful as some other cuts. To me it needs a sauce or a flavor-booster like your truffle idea. Hmmmm, maybe time for a d'Artagnan order....:)

Thanks for comments.