Table etiquette on both sides of the Atlantic

I started off countering Yves' notions that Americans eat by cutting all the food up to bits and then eating it. Nobody I know in North America eats that way, and I spent 17 years there, and I still head that way at least once per quarter...

Now I must object to Hunt's statement about elbows. My english grandmother tortured me (and my sister) endlessly about elbows on tables and hands disappearing below deck, to the point that I can still hear the terrifying "EEEE-OOOH" echoing in my ears. And having been born and raised in my formative years in Italy, I can assure you that nobody in my family or among my friends eats with their elbows on the table. Not in public anyway...

Leaving out cases of slob families (they exist on both sides of the pond) I think these distinctions between US and EU eating habits are largely lacking in supporting evidence...

;-)

Between business (I'm on call most of the time) and a teenager, I keep my cellphone on most of the time. But it's easy to put it on vibrate, and to excuse myself from the table (if it's likely, I usually tell my tablemates). Few restaurants don't have either a quiet alcove, or a easyexit to the street. I will not answer the phone at the table, and find it bothersome to be with those who do.

So the table next to us loudly insisted on chopsticks in a Thai restaurant the other evening......

Mike, thank you for the clarification. My lesson in the "elbows" came from my protocol coach, years ago, when I began doing business abroad. Over the years, made usually in metropolitan restaurants, though mostly NOT in Italy, I had made observations that seemed to validate this, most often in the UK. Now, I probably have made some incorrect assumptions, regarding the origin of the diners around me. Though in Paris, it is probably as likely that the couple dining at the next table is from almost anyplace, besides Paris. This would be like me assuming that the diners to my left must be from Louisiana, as I am dining in New Orleans. Probably an over-generalization, supported by weak observations. Now, however, you have me really thinking! I believe that I will observe MY host/hostess/guest-of-hono(u)r, before I jump to any conclusion, as to the placement of my elbows!!!!

Again, thanks for the clarification, and for giving me cause to pause. If this keeps up, I'll never be able to enjoy my meal, as I will be too concerned with "doing the right thing," but you'll NOT see me cutting my food into little pieces!

Hunt

Hello Yves,

Your description of the American method of using a knife and fork is, as others have noted, inaccurate. The "zig-zag" method, as it is called, requires one to cut their meat in the usual manner, then to place the fork in the right hand to eat the sliced morsel, replacing the fork again in the left hand for the next cut. I googled a few explanations of the divergence in techniques, and it seems the conventional wisdom is that the New World had already begun to be settled by the time the fork was introduced into England, and so there was no existing etiquette upon which to agree or disagree. The justification for the zig-zag method is that one is always using his dominant hand. One reference claimed that the Continental style is actually a newer innovation, and has simply not had time to become common practice in the United States.

As I understand it, Dale, the use of chopsticks in Thailand is retricted to noodle dishes (a Chinese influence), but European knife and fork date only to the nineteenth Century, before which most meals were eaten without utensils (rice balls were used to sop up sauces).

Mark Lipton

in article XVk4f.16863$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com, Tom S at snipped-for-privacy@dontspampacbell.net wrote on 10/15/05 9:45 PM:

I think I need to tune up my skills a bit. I'm posting in this specific spot only because my newsreader does not let me see who's responding directly to who(m), not to respond to Tom, but this just has to be one of the most bizarre threads in a long time. Usually, by a dozen or so posts, I can see the tongues poking through the cheeks rather easily, but this time you guys actually seem rather serious. Either you're getting better at sarcasm, I'm getting worse at detecting it, or this has been a very dull weekend for you.

Here in California we've had a day full of exciting, if frustrating football (American, of course) and baseball. Just think, instead of watching USC narrowly beat Notre Dame, the Angels lose again to the White Sox, or relaxing on the beach, I could have been talking about whether or not Americans do or do not cut their food into little pieces before eating. Haven't seen that done by anyone over 6 or under much 80 in my entire life, by the way.

I've got British and Eastern European lineage, and have traveled quite a lot over the years. I've always thought that the 'upside-down' fork in the left hand thing was actually a much more efficient way to eat. Putting down the knife with each bite seems quite inefficient at best. Then again, it probably helps take one longer to eat, which is supposed to be a good thing.

Oh darn, I didn't want to get into this topic, but I guess I have.

You mean the use of the European knife and fork *in Thailand* of course. In Europe it has been around since the sixteenth and became universal in the 17th.

Think about THIS - you could have followed the death-spiral of some AZ (US) football teams, had to contemplate the D'backs '06 season, and had the pleasure of watching the AZ Cardinals (US NFL football)! Midlife isn't all that bad just west of here .

After many protocol lessons, I have never felt at all comfortable with the above described manner of knife/fork handling. My wife does it with ease, when in UK/Europe, but I just go about things as usual - it gets more food to my mouth, than to my lap, which is usually a good thing.

Now to "chopsticks." I have a rather ungainly manner of handling these utensils, but if viewed from afar, few would notice, and I can even manage non-sticky rice pretty well. It's hardly an elegant use of the little wooden, or plastic guys, but works well. Again, my wife deftly wields them with ease, elegance, and in a pretty utilitarian manner.

Hey, it's a slow weekend, and I don't have any interesting TN's to share...

Hunt

"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" in message news:h0y4f.148468$ snipped-for-privacy@newsc.telia.net :

And he would know, too, being from there. But as with your point, Nils, habits differ over similar distances within the US. (Apropos Kissinger, you've noticed US observing the venerated custom of importing talent. Other modern Cabinet officials came from Poland, Czechoslovakia, Cuba. In the 1990s the US military, and previously NATO, were headed by another citizen born in Poland with a Georgian family name. Many US scientists, physicians, and other skilled workers originated elsewhere. The leading architect came from China. The chief executive of my home state is from Styria in Austria -- as no Austrian would let me forget, when I was there just before his election. He speaks English with a strong accent, almost as strong as those of natives of parts of the US I've seen.)

But Europe is far from America. You can't expect delicate geographical distinctions at such distances, in either direction. (Least of all from those US citizens who forget even that America itself is a system of continents and island nations rather than one country, etc. etc. -- more below, reflecting current educational realities.)

Cheers -- Max

-- "The author gave a quiz to his students at the University of Miami and found that most couldn't point out France on a map, or for that matter, ami." -- Barnes and Noble book catalog description for McClintock and Helgren, _Everything is Somewhere._ (1980s.)

Correction (something cut part of "Miami" in original):

"Max Hauser" in message news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com:

The British Empire, in its heyday, sometimes moved talent around effectively too. An example is John Buchan. A preacher's kid from Australia, he made a career in England, wrote lurid adventure novels (which he much enjoyed reading) -- the best known is _The Thirty-Nine Steps_ (1915); became a member of Parliament, was made a baron and finally Governor General of Canada.

Hunt wrote on 16 Oct 2005 17:24:50 GMT:

H> After many protocol lessons, I have never felt at all H> comfortable with the above described manner of knife/fork H> handling. My wife does it with ease, when in UK/Europe, but H> I just go about things as usual - it gets more food to my H> mouth, than to my lap, which is usually a good thing.

H> Now to "chopsticks." I have a rather ungainly manner of H> handling these utensils, but if viewed from afar, few would H> notice, and I can even manage non-sticky rice pretty well. H> It's hardly an elegant use of the

I learned to use cutlery on the east side of the Atlantic. When I came to the US, I switched to the American style without any problems. Incidentally, only cutting up as much as one intends to pick up with the fork *is* the standard method, IMHO (maybe not so humble!). However, I have no problem reverting to the European method when I wish tho', if anyone seems to want to take offence in Europe, I am stubbornly American! In all honesty I think you can eat faster European style than American :-) I don't know how European is the style, I seem to remember Dickens remarking on the horrible German style of eating (essentially the current American method)! My kids were fascinated by European etiquette and learned the method without any problems even tho' they switched back when we returned home.

As far as chopsticks are concerned, if you can write with a pencil you can use chopsticks! The upper chopstick is manipulated just like a pencil and and the lower is held steady. I have found that pointing this out to European visitors has them eating with chopsticks within minutes, especially in Japanese restaurants. It does take longer to achieve a full oriental facility and I still cannot cut food with chopsticks as can the parents of some of my acquaintances!

James Silverton.

Australia??

John Buchan of Stellknow, Midlothian, Solicitor & Banker at Peebles (1811-1883) married 1844 Violet, dau of William Henderson, of Peebles and had, with other issue

Rev. John Buchan, Minister of John Knox Church, Glasgow (1847-1911) married 1874 Helen, dau of John Masterson, of Broughton Green, Peebles, with issue an eldest son

John Buchan, cr 1935, Baron Tweedsmuir (1875-1940), born Perth (Scotland). James Dempster (remove nospam to reply by email)

You know you've had a good night when you wake up and someone's outlining you in chalk.