Table etiquette on both sides of the Atlantic

As in Europe. Expect that, unlike the UK, we eat pizza with our fingers.

--brian

Well I'm American and I don't know anybody who cuts up all their food and then puts the knife down except when an adult is doing so for a child.

Yves

none of my american friends, colleagues or relatives eat in the way you describe.

Where did you observe such ways?

Yes, in most of Europe and the UK, the knife and fork are held differently, and the fork, especially is used in, what would be considered, an "upside down" manner. However, the above description, while maybe observable in some places, is NOT considered proper etiquette in the US. On is instructed, from a very early age, in "proper" circles to NOT cut more than one portion, to eat THAT portion, and then to cut again. With certain meats, it can become a bit difficult, especially when near the bone, but instructions are very clear, cut one bit-sized piece, and eat it, before lifting the knife to cut another - no exceptions, except as noted in another post - when cutting the food for a small child, or perhaps an aged adult, who might experience a problem wielding a knife properly, and safely.

I can only imagine that such an observation could only be made in a "family- style restaurant" quite far from the exhibition of "proper etiquette." I, too, would be a bit repulsed at such a display, and would chalk it up to a situation, where one just has never been taught "better."

I cannot speculate on such, as I am never in the company of any, who would eat that way.

Now, living in the "outback," whether in the US, Old West, or in the reaches of the Gibson Desert, in OZ, might well cause one to abbreviate their normal dining patterns, but, in the US, at least, I can certify that such behavior is frowned upon.

Now, two differences, that are worth noting, concern the placement of utensils on/around the plate, once they have been used, and the intent is to use them again, and where one's elbows rest, while dining. In Europe, and less-often observed in the UK, it is common practice to place, say the fork, with tines down, onto the edge of one's plate, with the handle resting on the table. In the US, it is the desired placement, for the fork (substitute knife, as well), at the top edge of the plate (tine placement optional), with the entire utensil resting on the plate, above the table. Maybe this developed in the early US, where ants, and other unwanted things crawled upon the table, and the desire was to not provide them with access, via a bridge to the food. In the US, it is improper for any part of the utensil to touch the table, once it has been used - it is never allowed off of the plate, or some sort of charger /saucer - never. Also, soup spoons are always placed onto the saucer below the soup bowl, never left residing in the soup bowl, and NEVER allowed to touch the table!

Elbows - well in the US, it is taught that they should NEVER be placed upon the table. To keep this from happening, children are taught to make one cut of the food, place the knife down (on the edge of the plate, with all parts above the table), retire the non-eating hand (left for right-handers, right for left-handers) to one's lap, and then eat the single cut piece with their eating hand. This practice is duplicated for eat mouthful. In Europe and UK, it is very common to have the diner's elbows on the table, and in some circles thought rude to have a hand in one's lap. I've been told, on several occasions, that this practice stems from mediaeval times, that a hand, hidden below the table, could easily hold a dagger. As daggers have long been out of favo(u)r, I cannot comment on this, however, I do attempt to keep my elbows ON the table when dining in Europe/UK. I'm sure that Americans, dining around me, assume that I was ill-bred, but so be it.

One area of contention, in the US, is where utensils are placed, to signal the server, that they are finished. Some say that placing the fork, tines down, aligned with the knife at approximately 5:00 on the plate, with the handles resting on the rim, signal this. Others like for the utensils to be placed along the top edge of the plate, but the first group instructs that they be placed there (knife blade toward the diner), while eating. As most servers don't seem to have any idea of what is proper, I'd opt for the former, rather than the latter, and be prepared to answer, "yes, I am finished. You may remove the plate." Also, in good company, or at a fine dining establishment, utensils are NEVER reused and are ALWAYS replaced with fresh ones - no exceptions. I have had this conversation with the director of food/beverage at my country club, on several occasions, and insist that ALL servers replace ANY used utensil with a fresh one!

Now, shouldn't ALL restaurants offer a little stool for the ladies to place their purse upon?

Thanks for the thought-provoking article, even though it might be off-topic in this NG. I only fear that the example(s) that you cited were not representative of dining etiquette in most of the US.

Hunt

I started off countering Yves' notions that Americans eat by cutting all the food up to bits and then eating it. Nobody I know in North America eats that way, and I spent 17 years there, and I still head that way at least once per quarter...

Now I must object to Hunt's statement about elbows. My english grandmother tortured me (and my sister) endlessly about elbows on tables and hands disappearing below deck, to the point that I can still hear the terrifying "EEEE-OOOH" echoing in my ears. And having been born and raised in my formative years in Italy, I can assure you that nobody in my family or among my friends eats with their elbows on the table. Not in public anyway...

Leaving out cases of slob families (they exist on both sides of the pond) I think these distinctions between US and EU eating habits are largely lacking in supporting evidence...

;-)

Interesting observations Yves, thanks.

"Yves" in news:4350b02d$ snipped-for-privacy@news.vo.lu :

Yes, people wonder about that in the US too, those who read or travel anyway. It causes ambiguities. Servers in US restaurants that claimed strong French influence have asked if I wanted something in an "entrée size" portion, requiring me to ask them if they meant French sense or US sense. (Actually if you see the history of French menu evolution, the term is natural, as also is its extraction out of context, with international menu simplification.) Same thing if a British server on US soil offers "French" salad dressing -- which in Britain still of course implies a vinaigrette as it also did in the US generally when I was a child (see Fannie Farmer Cookbook, 1965 ed.), before USage drifted to a specialized reddish variant. (And of course North America, geographically separate from much of the Anglophone world, evolved separate favorite words for foods that most English speakers call maize, aubergines, and so on.)

That observation mixes two separate US preferences that often do not coincide. First, use of knife and fork separately is indeed a US quirk but not at all universal. (I, in California, was taught the same way you describe for Europeans.) The second point, cutting things up in advance, is just an individual taste that some people seem to retain as they grow up ("like salt on ice cream, or pepper on bananas"). I have seen it, but in my experience it's a small minority of people. Anyway, it's their own food.

You'd find this view in the US also, if you asked around. But people do many things at table. Lately some people talk distractedly on cell phones, or produce invasive flash cameras at elegant restaurants and flood the place with light, disrupting other tables. They rationalize this easily to themselves; if you try to tip them off separately that it is taken poorly by others, they reply confidently that they disagree, because no one has confronted them in the act. (Surely these behaviors are more important than how people cuts their food.) In east Asia, knives are traditionally a kitchen tool, not found at civilized tables. Then it is the cook's job to cut up _everyone's_ food to bite-size pieces so they can use simple wooden eating sticks. We also were taught to use these sticks commonly in California, because so many restaurants are of east-Asian genre. Here is the ultimate such situation: A friend of mine tends injured wild animals, which includes feeding their usual diet. There is a freezer full of mice, in sealed plastic bags. One raptor needed "minced mouse." Supervisor handed to my friend some bagged mice, semi-frozen. "How do I mince them?" "Use scissors, and start with the nose."

"Is that a gun in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?" -- Mae West

Cheers -- Max

-- "Qu'ils mangent des brioches." -- Marie Antoinette

Between business (I'm on call most of the time) and a teenager, I keep my cellphone on most of the time. But it's easy to put it on vibrate, and to excuse myself from the table (if it's likely, I usually tell my tablemates). Few restaurants don't have either a quiet alcove, or a easyexit to the street. I will not answer the phone at the table, and find it bothersome to be with those who do.

So the table next to us loudly insisted on chopsticks in a Thai restaurant the other evening......

Mike, thank you for the clarification. My lesson in the "elbows" came from my protocol coach, years ago, when I began doing business abroad. Over the years, made usually in metropolitan restaurants, though mostly NOT in Italy, I had made observations that seemed to validate this, most often in the UK. Now, I probably have made some incorrect assumptions, regarding the origin of the diners around me. Though in Paris, it is probably as likely that the couple dining at the next table is from almost anyplace, besides Paris. This would be like me assuming that the diners to my left must be from Louisiana, as I am dining in New Orleans. Probably an over-generalization, supported by weak observations. Now, however, you have me really thinking! I believe that I will observe MY host/hostess/guest-of-hono(u)r, before I jump to any conclusion, as to the placement of my elbows!!!!

Again, thanks for the clarification, and for giving me cause to pause. If this keeps up, I'll never be able to enjoy my meal, as I will be too concerned with "doing the right thing," but you'll NOT see me cutting my food into little pieces!

Hunt

Hello Yves,

Your description of the American method of using a knife and fork is, as others have noted, inaccurate. The "zig-zag" method, as it is called, requires one to cut their meat in the usual manner, then to place the fork in the right hand to eat the sliced morsel, replacing the fork again in the left hand for the next cut. I googled a few explanations of the divergence in techniques, and it seems the conventional wisdom is that the New World had already begun to be settled by the time the fork was introduced into England, and so there was no existing etiquette upon which to agree or disagree. The justification for the zig-zag method is that one is always using his dominant hand. One reference claimed that the Continental style is actually a newer innovation, and has simply not had time to become common practice in the United States.

As I understand it, Dale, the use of chopsticks in Thailand is retricted to noodle dishes (a Chinese influence), but European knife and fork date only to the nineteenth Century, before which most meals were eaten without utensils (rice balls were used to sop up sauces).

Mark Lipton

My apologies in advance for this OT post.

FYI, Yves, what you have just described as American eating style is _not_ considered etiquettically correct here in the USA. Just because you may have observed it here, or heard about it anecdotally does not mean that it is the accepted norm.

I have a difficult time using the fork for eating with my left hand and cutting with the right, so I usually end up switching the fork back and forth a lot. Perhaps that's why some Americans simply start by cutting up everything to begin with, using the fork in the left hand to hold the food down and the right hand to wield the knife. Then they only have to switch the fork _once_.

Hold it right there, Yves. What makes you think you know what Americans think? Are you unaware that most Americans have European roots? I for one certainly don't regard my ancestors as barbarians.

I think you've been watching too many Westerns, pardner.

Tom S

in article XVk4f.16863$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com, Tom S at snipped-for-privacy@dontspampacbell.net wrote on 10/15/05 9:45 PM:

I think I need to tune up my skills a bit. I'm posting in this specific spot only because my newsreader does not let me see who's responding directly to who(m), not to respond to Tom, but this just has to be one of the most bizarre threads in a long time. Usually, by a dozen or so posts, I can see the tongues poking through the cheeks rather easily, but this time you guys actually seem rather serious. Either you're getting better at sarcasm, I'm getting worse at detecting it, or this has been a very dull weekend for you.

Here in California we've had a day full of exciting, if frustrating football (American, of course) and baseball. Just think, instead of watching USC narrowly beat Notre Dame, the Angels lose again to the White Sox, or relaxing on the beach, I could have been talking about whether or not Americans do or do not cut their food into little pieces before eating. Haven't seen that done by anyone over 6 or under much 80 in my entire life, by the way.

I've got British and Eastern European lineage, and have traveled quite a lot over the years. I've always thought that the 'upside-down' fork in the left hand thing was actually a much more efficient way to eat. Putting down the knife with each bite seems quite inefficient at best. Then again, it probably helps take one longer to eat, which is supposed to be a good thing.

Oh darn, I didn't want to get into this topic, but I guess I have.

You mean the use of the European knife and fork *in Thailand* of course. In Europe it has been around since the sixteenth and became universal in the 17th.

Think about THIS - you could have followed the death-spiral of some AZ (US) football teams, had to contemplate the D'backs '06 season, and had the pleasure of watching the AZ Cardinals (US NFL football)! Midlife isn't all that bad just west of here .

After many protocol lessons, I have never felt at all comfortable with the above described manner of knife/fork handling. My wife does it with ease, when in UK/Europe, but I just go about things as usual - it gets more food to my mouth, than to my lap, which is usually a good thing.

Now to "chopsticks." I have a rather ungainly manner of handling these utensils, but if viewed from afar, few would notice, and I can even manage non-sticky rice pretty well. It's hardly an elegant use of the little wooden, or plastic guys, but works well. Again, my wife deftly wields them with ease, elegance, and in a pretty utilitarian manner.

Hey, it's a slow weekend, and I don't have any interesting TN's to share...

Hunt

Hello, and PMJI; A former foreign minsiter of USA (Kissinger) is on record as having once said, whom do I call to call Europe? And in fact, Europe is after all a continent (even if it´s a small one). Table manners are quite likely to differ ... however, self, who was born and raised on the outskirts of what remains of the Swedish empire, was always taugth never, ever to place the elbows on the table while eating. Possibly, after the last dish had been removed, and the guests were blinking owlishly across the table at each other could the odd elbow be allowed on the table. If then. Cheers Nils Gustaf

"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" in message news:h0y4f.148468$ snipped-for-privacy@newsc.telia.net :

And he would know, too, being from there. But as with your point, Nils, habits differ over similar distances within the US. (Apropos Kissinger, you've noticed US observing the venerated custom of importing talent. Other modern Cabinet officials came from Poland, Czechoslovakia, Cuba. In the 1990s the US military, and previously NATO, were headed by another citizen born in Poland with a Georgian family name. Many US scientists, physicians, and other skilled workers originated elsewhere. The leading architect came from China. The chief executive of my home state is from Styria in Austria -- as no Austrian would let me forget, when I was there just before his election. He speaks English with a strong accent, almost as strong as those of natives of parts of the US I've seen.)

But Europe is far from America. You can't expect delicate geographical distinctions at such distances, in either direction. (Least of all from those US citizens who forget even that America itself is a system of continents and island nations rather than one country, etc. etc. -- more below, reflecting current educational realities.)

Cheers -- Max

-- "The author gave a quiz to his students at the University of Miami and found that most couldn't point out France on a map, or for that matter, ami." -- Barnes and Noble book catalog description for McClintock and Helgren, _Everything is Somewhere._ (1980s.)

Correction (something cut part of "Miami" in original):

"Max Hauser" in message news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com:

The British Empire, in its heyday, sometimes moved talent around effectively too. An example is John Buchan. A preacher's kid from Australia, he made a career in England, wrote lurid adventure novels (which he much enjoyed reading) -- the best known is _The Thirty-Nine Steps_ (1915); became a member of Parliament, was made a baron and finally Governor General of Canada.

Hunt wrote on 16 Oct 2005 17:24:50 GMT:

H> After many protocol lessons, I have never felt at all H> comfortable with the above described manner of knife/fork H> handling. My wife does it with ease, when in UK/Europe, but H> I just go about things as usual - it gets more food to my H> mouth, than to my lap, which is usually a good thing.

H> Now to "chopsticks." I have a rather ungainly manner of H> handling these utensils, but if viewed from afar, few would H> notice, and I can even manage non-sticky rice pretty well. H> It's hardly an elegant use of the

I learned to use cutlery on the east side of the Atlantic. When I came to the US, I switched to the American style without any problems. Incidentally, only cutting up as much as one intends to pick up with the fork *is* the standard method, IMHO (maybe not so humble!). However, I have no problem reverting to the European method when I wish tho', if anyone seems to want to take offence in Europe, I am stubbornly American! In all honesty I think you can eat faster European style than American :-) I don't know how European is the style, I seem to remember Dickens remarking on the horrible German style of eating (essentially the current American method)! My kids were fascinated by European etiquette and learned the method without any problems even tho' they switched back when we returned home.

As far as chopsticks are concerned, if you can write with a pencil you can use chopsticks! The upper chopstick is manipulated just like a pencil and and the lower is held steady. I have found that pointing this out to European visitors has them eating with chopsticks within minutes, especially in Japanese restaurants. It does take longer to achieve a full oriental facility and I still cannot cut food with chopsticks as can the parents of some of my acquaintances!

James Silverton.

Australia??

John Buchan of Stellknow, Midlothian, Solicitor & Banker at Peebles (1811-1883) married 1844 Violet, dau of William Henderson, of Peebles and had, with other issue

Rev. John Buchan, Minister of John Knox Church, Glasgow (1847-1911) married 1874 Helen, dau of John Masterson, of Broughton Green, Peebles, with issue an eldest son

John Buchan, cr 1935, Baron Tweedsmuir (1875-1940), born Perth (Scotland). James Dempster (remove nospam to reply by email)

You know you've had a good night when you wake up and someone's outlining you in chalk.