Wine maker's dinner: Domaine Weinbach

To the best of my knowledge, you won't find any prices on the homepages of Lafite, Mouton, Margaux, any Grande Marque Champagne house or top Rhône producer for their wines. Why do you expect something else from a top Alsace producer?

M.

Hi Nils,

I think the French have a thing when it comes to talking about money generally, even more so when it comes to discussing the costs of "luxury goods."

Perhaps this dates to the revolution. In the US or UK having a nice house or car is a sign of success; here it moves you up in the queue for the guillotine! :) So many beautiful properties are hidden behind rather high, insalubrious looking walls.

When you have workmen over to discuss a potential project, they will never talk money at all, instead preferring to send a written estimate. Difficult to iterate when you're trying to see what will be possible in a fixed budget.

Real estate is often listed without price, even when not particularly expensive. Even apartment rentals are frequently listed without price. If you have to ask... I think the assumption is that we all know the market, after all.

I too find the lack of "transparency" in pricing annoying, but I think it's cultural and extends to any number of areas.

-E

I like Weinbach more than you seem to, but pricing keeps it out of my cellar. But they sell enough I doubt they need to sell ex-cellar, very popular.

Well, yes. Why do I? AAMF, I looked into it, out of curiosity - Chapoutier has a a clear list of prices, while Guigal has not. Hugel has a price list, Trimbach has not. Zind Humbrecht apparently do not have a web site at all. Nor does Ostertag. Marcel Deiss' web site is beautiful and extremely informative, including where the grapes of each wine has been harvested - but does not contain a price list. Smith Haut Lafitte has a price list that you download. Chave has no web site, while Delas has a hugely informative site that will place the wine into a sensorial matrix, tell me about the terroir, the yield, the respect of the terroir and so on - but not what price the wines are. I could go on. My point being, if you feel that, as a producer, you want to inform concerning your production, your philosophy, your lineage, your vineyards, and show lots of pictures of the, admittedly often breathtaking, surroundings of the vineyards (at least that is the case in Alsace, Burgundy, and the Northern Rhone), then - why not a list of prices if you sell off the cellar door? Provided, of course, that you do sell off the cellar door. Drouhin and Jadot in Bourgogne do not and have no price list, Coche-Bizouard (admittedly not in the top rank) do and have. Perhaps Weinbach do not sell directly, on the domaine, I don't know. What's your opinion? Cheers Nils

Hello Dale I think the wines presented at this dinner were too young. Particularly the Rieslings. And no doubt you, and Michael, are right - this is one of the greatest producers in Alsace, lots of people agree to that. I have the same problem with Trimbach, if a problem it is. Saves me money, of course. Cheers Nils

That I never encountered price list on top producers' homepages.

But thank you for pointing out that Chapoutier, Hugel, Deiss and SHL do have price lists. Didn't know that. Also don't know whether Faller sells ex-cellars to private customers.

M.

Right you are.

Then, otoh, I live in a country where many producers, especially from 2nd or 3rd rank, do deliver wine free of charge to Vienna.

Btw, when do you plan to come to Vienna to share a bottle or two?

M.

Sorry, I was unclear - Deiss did not have a price list, but their web site is very beautiful.

Cheers

Nils

Love to, but, not in the foreseeable future! The idea is tempting though ... you are not, perchance, heading in the direction of Sweden?

Cheers

Nils

Maybe for the grape harvest... :-)

Well I think - with respect - you are being a little disengenuous here. The aforementioned 1er cru classé don't sell direct to the public, so it would be silly to publish prices. I would be surprised if a Grande Marque Champagne did either. However, when I went to taste at the Fallers, I was able to buy from the domaine without any difficulty - other than the overweaning arrogance of the members of the family. So that's one à priori reason to publish a price list.

The reason I say you're being disengenuous is that - in my opinion you know perfectly well that the REAL reason they don't publish their prices is for the same reason it's hard to find ANY prices online on manufacturers websites in France. The absence of recommended retail price is there to allow retailers to sell at any price they like, in my view. I've never been to a country where the dictum 'caveat emptor' was as true as it is in France.

And what is REALLY sad is that many winemakers don't seem to see how much more they'd sell if they were open and upfront about their prices.

-- All the best Fatty from Forges

Good point, Ian. Few regions are as insulated from their customer base as are the Bordelais.

Well, perhaps the situation is a bit like that faced by the wine importer Kermit Lynch in the US: his retail store carries the _highest_ prices for his own imports. Why? Because, if he sold them for less, he'd never be able to sell his wines to the distributors who are his major customer as they'd view him as undercutting their sales. Since I know that vignerons in France sell their wines for less than they can be found at retail (a commendable and logical practice, by the by) they might feel constrained to not advertise that fact and thereby alienate the major outlet for their wines.

Just a thought, Mark Lipton

The principle in France is that the vigneron sells his wine to the public at the same price that his wine merchants would, in order not to undercut his closest partners. Outside of Bordeaux and Burgundy areas, winemakers, especially the kind we tend to like, DO sell a fairly significant share of their wines direct.

Not for the moment either ... :-(

Nonono.

I've done grape harvesting only once, maybe ine minutes during a press trip to Pape Clément, then recently acquired by Bernard Magrez. Must have been in September ... was it 1988? Can't recall exactly.

I harvested one grape of sauvignon and immediately decided never ever even thinking about making my own wine, not even as a hobby, period.

M.

Very well put, Ian, especially the second part of the sentence.

M.