Advise for Vineyard Establishment

I make total sense. What I say is independent of what I grow, how many of them I grow and where I live. You on the other hand have so many conditions, your flow chart for growing grapes points in all different directions with no end to the logic. I am endorsing OWN ROOTED VINES. They are simple and most of the times have just as much resistance to phyloxera as root stock. In fact, according to the article below root stock is no guarantee either. What I am also saying is that a vine will die of cold damage before it ever will die from phyloxera in a cold climate like Washington.

Sep 27, 7:45 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:

This is TOTAL nonesense and anyone following this thread realizes that you are NOT contributing ANYTHING useful.

IF you are happy doing what you are doing, that is fine;

BUT:

to state to OTHERS that professional wine growers are not living in the real world, that nurseries are motivated by money only, that the French do not know anything about grape growing, that self rooted is the only way to go, that fermenting in NON FDA APPROVED containers is just fine, that mulch is the way to go for everyone, and that you alone have the secret to success and all others are motived by money is pure nonesense.

PLEASE, continue to do what makes you happy B U T realize that you are expressing an OPINION based on YOUR experience in a LIMITED environment in what you perceive as being the WHOLE world of viticulture.

On the other hand I encourage the following:

I encourage all who may read this thread and are interested in growing wine grapes to do the following:

Research the availabel literature

Contact the Agriculture Extension agent in the area they live

Contact PROFESSIONAL growers in their area to obtain information as to varieties and how to grow these varieties.

Join a growers association in their area, especially those that have educational seminars.

If you wish to engage in arguementation, please spend your time in other groups who relish this sort of thing, ie, computer languages or programming or religion,etc.

Thank You Paul for your good advise, I actually started the WSU viticulture online courses today, partially from your recomendations...though so far (two lectures) they are more oriented toward the eastern WA growers. The main reason (as I stated before) I want to use rootstocks is actually to control vigor and in turn ripen friut earlier, this is according to research done at the WSU Mt Vernon research facility where they ripen Pinot Noir with around 1600 growing degrees .....by the way the Puget Sound is not cold it is an extremely mild climate the temp drops below freezing maybe a couple of times a year and the ground never freezes. typical winter weather is 40F and raining if it does freeze often everything is covered in ice which keeps plants from damage.... jay

Jay write: ".though so far (two lectures) they are more oriented toward the eastern WA growers. "

IOW, they agree with doublesb.

Just a word of advice to Jay. Jay, I was once like you. Worrying about yearly vintages more than anything else. I had visions of grandeur harvesting world class grapes and making world class wine. Well, what I'm recommending to you is the result of over 10 years of experience and research. I'm not trying to screw you, I'm trying to help you. Paul is trying to help you too but he seems to have a myopic view of viticulture. I sense he has very little other experience with plants and logic. That is just my opinion. You only need to read the links I posted about rootstock and "The Perfect Freeze" to see how the worlds leading authorities on viticulture contridict themselves. In one article Bob Pool wonders about the future of the FInger Lake's vinifera because they were killed as a result of being grown on root stock and in the next article recommends rootstock. I have seen first hand the trouble and inflexibility of rootstock. Obviously you will do what you want but you can't say you didn't have other points of view bsides the party line that Paul will provide. As far as loosening your soil, the best way to do it is get a backhoe and dig up the dirt down to a level of 3 feet deep for every row you plan to grow. That was advised to me and seemed like the right thing to do. I didn't do it because of expense. You could also plant your vines with a posthole digger and make sure you go down 3 feet with the hole. If you really do have sandy loam there shouldn't be a problem as far as compaction and also read the info on the web as far as the probability you'll have phyloxera problems with sandy soil.

n Sep 28, 3:43 am, jay wrote:

Lets see Paul,

You were wrong about wood chips, wrong about laterals, wrong about bees, wrong about Brute trash cans ( most are NSF #2, food grade) , wrong about phyloxera being a bigger threat than cold as proven by "The perfect freeze" and you contradict every other apect of viticulture according to Lon Rombough. Now, you have given Jay advise to contact the local viticulture gurus and they agree with me! How much more wrong could you be?

Couple more thoughts for anyone reading this in the future.

If you look at vines as an "investment" in the future you want your investment to keep growing every year. What is lost in the rootstock issue is the principal that is compounding yearly under the ground. The root system. With rootstock that nest egg doesn't even resemble what is above ground. If your vine is killed back to the graft, not only do you lose the above ground vine but the below ground investment is useless too. Viticulturists like Paul never mention that fact because they don't think about it. The root system is the most important part of the vine but becomes just an afterthought in the rootstock debate. Here's a scenario to illustrate a "perfect storm". You buy grafted vines and you plant them. Then you bust your ass for 4 years getting them to produce in the 4th year. Finally you have a year or 2 of production from the vines. Don't forget, a vine doesn't hit it's full potential until about the 10th year! That is the goal, getting to the 10th year and beyond. Now you get a "perfect freeze" in your 7th year. Not only do you lose everything with grafted vines, you lose a 7 year root system that would never be damaged by a perfect freeze if it was own rooted vines. If you grew own rooted vines, not only would you be back in business in one year, you have a 7 year root system which, in effect, means you still have a seven year old vine on your way to the magic 10th year. If you have grafted vines, you start from scratch basically putting you 7 years in the whole when it comes to the root system. Which means it'll take tou 17 years to get to the magic 10th year! WOW. Would anyone really want to take that chance in a cold climate viticultural area? Not me. Now, if this doesn't make you think, I don't know what will. In the above scenario, you could end up cultivating, pruning and sparaying for 10 years and end up with

Another thought I left out.

Global warming, while on the surface, would seem good for cold climate areas, is actually really bad. What it will increase is the cold damge caused by warm days preceding cold snaps. In these scenarios like "The Perfect Freeze" the cold temps don't need to be as low as the advertised kill temps of the variety. All varieties are vulnerable to freezing temps preceded by warm temps. These type of scenarios have actually caused most of the damage in the northeast the past decade. As global warming increases and the probability of warm days in the winter increases, the probability of this type of damage increases.

Nope, even your preferred expert, Lon Romboubough does not mention wood chip mulch. He does mention (page 63) a study done by Cornell University which showed LOWERED brix levels using mulch. There goes your two brix increase theory - shot down by your own expert.

Not hardly, although laterals can contribute they can also be detrimental in an overly vigorous vineyard and promote poor air circulation and hence disease. The OP was referencing his overly vigorous vineyard.

I remember saying that bees are attracted to damaged fruit such as bird pecks or other predators. Do you disagree with this?

Not all Rubbermaid Brute trash cans are food grade or suitable for fermenting wine.

This was information I received FROM THE MANUFACTURER and was about a particular Rubbermaid Trash can(s) that I was considering buying.

If you want to take the risk and poisin yourself, be my guest. For all others, I suggest you call the manufacturer and ask specifically if the particular Brute Trash can you are considering buying is suitable for fermenting wine. There are other safer options available.

Lon Rombough is not against root stock. I suggest you read pages 169-73 There are certain rootstocks that make certain varieties MORE winter hardy. In addition you can read the other benefits of rootstock if you bother to read your source. His only criticism to rootstock vines is their compartively higher cost than self rooted. This increased cost can be recouped from other benefits.

He even includes a list of books on rootstocks in the Bibliography. If you reference an "expert" it would serve you well to actually read what the "expert" says.

I think Jay has a lot more on the ball and knows how to research the facts and not listen to self proclaimed experts like yourself.

No, they recommend rootstock though the ones they recommend are different on that side of the state

They recommend rootstock even tho they get a deep freeze every 7-10 years? OK. What do I know? They're the experts.

though the do say that the advantages of own routed vines are cost, and that there are easy methods of reproducing your vines by layering and other methods and have a uniform crop with little investment.... BUT you can always regraft new scions to whatever rootstock you have planted and replace your fuiting wood with any compatable vine.... but yes Bob I agree recovery would be easier and possibly quicker retraining new vigourous buds from self rooted vines.....I am not concerned with this where I live though I appreciate your contribution, thoughts on the subject and particularly the refrences you provided.

WSU recommends rootstock as a preventive measure against disease and for increasing or decreasing vigor, drought tolerance and tolerance to salinity

They don’t completely disagree with you Bob but they do recommend looking into the advantages of rootstock over the cost savings and of vineyard establishment,

i did find out today that 101-14 is more drought tolerant and can ripen earlier than 3309 ...(maybe) according to one lecture, does anyone know if this is documented?

I started this thread seeking advice and I appreciate all contributions especially ones that are well thought out , referenced, from real personal experience that applies to the question at hand...I don't appreciate nor will I listen to people I think are more enthusiastic about their opinions than their research/or experience or the soundness of their advise....in this case I appreciate you ( BOB ) providing research to support your opinions and respect your arguments because of it.... the pissing match is just entertaining....and generally good for testing the strength on an Idea anyway

....but I would ask people in general to be careful about giving advise to those who ask without really knowing what you are talking about, there is nothing worse than false profits and in some cases can get people killed...and no I am not kidding, I do some welding since I work on old motorcyles and a friend of mine took some advise from someone to clean the materials to be welded with brake cleaner....which reacted with the argon/electrode combo and nearly killed him from poisonous gas...apparantly the guy who made the recommendation never had actually used brake cleaner, but used carb cleaner and thought it was the same stuff....almost killed him ....

rootstocks it’s going to be I think....in this part of the country you can just stick cuttings in the wet unfrozen winter earth and in spring you'll have vines...I can do that anytime at almost no cost.

Jay,

I give my opinion. That is it. That is what I think these boards are about. I always remind myself that amateurs built the Ark and professionals built the Titanic. That being said here is my opinion on what you are doing.

Pinot Noir is the heartbreak grape. It requires alot of attention. I have no experience with it but I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. The work most likely won't justify the time, money or the result. You will have to spray a lot.

I like hybrids. At first I didn't but I do now. You can grow them own rooted. I advise anyone starting a vineyard to grow them. They are less maintenance and if you don't do this for a living you want time to live your other life. There are many REALLY GOOD hybrids out there now so, as a hobby I don't recommend any vinifera.

Leave room for a car or ATV in your rows. 400 vines I think is too much to backpack spray. You will find that eventually you'll be sick of spraying especially Pinot Noir. If I had to do it all over again I'd space my rows 10ft apart. I also would probably plant at 5 feet within rows. It's the distance between rows that I think is the most important to allow you to move around.

Regent looks like a good grape. I didn't research any of the other ones but Regent sounds almost too good to be true.

Single wire High cordon is the least maintainance and easiest to prune. Requires less wires. I use it on all my vines.

Wood Chip mulch. ;).

This hobby will take more of your time then you think.

Just to prove that I am not against every thing you say; I agree with 90% of what you just posted.

The things I would add is that certain varieties like Chambourcin are, in my opinion best planted (in my area) with root stock. The variety, self rooted does not seem to have roots that go deep enough for water in times of draught. At least this is my experience and that of others in the area. - perhaps I should mulch this one row :-)

If I had room, I would plant the following hybrids which are well suited to the area in which I live; Chardonnel, Traminette, Seyval Blanc.

I dislike high wire. The reason I don't like it (and I do have three rows of 25 vines each in it) are that it is very difficult to net. If birds are a problem in your area, this is a big consideration.

The vines I do have on high wire are Chambourcin because of its eratic growing behavior it is easier just to let them flop over from a high wire cordon. I also have a row of Norton which also favors downward growth of shoots. I have one row of Chardonnay that I am going to convert to VSP because of the bird issue and the fact that Chardonnay loves to grow vertical and is a relatively easy grape to trellis.

I agree with doublesb on the Pinot Noir issue and also the row width issue as well as his statement that it is going to take you a lot longer than you think to maintain.

I have two vineyards. One is in my back yard and consist of 110 vines of about equal numbers of Merlot, Cabernet Franc and Cabernet Sauvignon.

I recently inherited a friends quarter acre vineyard (175 vines) out in the country because he had to move to town because of health reasons. The new owners did not want to maintain the vineyard, did not want wine, they just wanted someone to maintain the vineyard and make it look nice (works for me)

Out there (Pleasant Valley, MD) I am growing Nebiollo (don't like growing this grape even though it is my first year of managing this vineyard - low producer and late ripening); Chardonnay (75 vines) I like growing this variety because it grows upright and is a charm to grow, one row of Voigner (seems to be doing ok) one row of Norton, also known as Cynthiana (hate this grape - requires high wire and fruit ripens VERY late and has small clusters with high pH and high TA) and one row of self rooted Chambourcin. Chambourcin is sulphur sensitive so you can not use it on Chambourcin OR Norton.

All together I have about 285 vines. If I were not retired, I would have a VERY difficult time maintaining this many vines.

Harvest time is here and I am fatigued with harvesting. The Chardonnay produces a LOT of grapes (going to have to correct this next year)

Paul

"The things I would add is that certain varieties like Chambourcin are, in my opinion best planted (in my area) with root stock. The variety, self rooted does not seem to have roots that go deep enough for water in times of draught. "

There you go. A reason to wood chip mulch! I grow own rooted Chambourcin. It wasn't doing very well in certain areas of the vineyard until I mulched the whole vineyard. Try it Paul, you'll like it. It does take work to move those chips in there but it'll be worth it and you'll see what I'm talking about.

I don't like Seyval Blanc from the north east. Never had one that I liked but if you like that "grass" type wine style it probably is good. I LOVE Traminnette. Am growing some and is tough to kill ;).

One other thing I think is good in a grape and Paul reminded me of it is cluster size. Harvesting large clusters is much more pleasant than harvesting many small ones. I have no idea how it would do in Washington.

Another thing I do yearly now is prune late do delay bud break. I was skeptical at first because I thought it was BS but it does delay it a lot.

Ummmm..... no. A reason to mulch. Not a reason to mulch _with wood chips_. Or perhaps you were unaware that other materials, which do not rot or support the growth of fungus, can be used as mulch?

perhaps you were unaware that other materials, which do not rot or support the growth of fungus, can be used as mulch? "

LOL. That's why it's good. Because it rots and promotes the growth of fungus.ROFLMAO!

snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote:

It is a 175 foot length of row. That is a LOT of wood chips.

Right now, this vineyard is not cultivated. It has grass in the isles and under the vines. It is not showing draught stress. We have had PLENTY of water this year.

I screwed up by spraying a small amount of sulphur in my spray mix and the temps were not hot when I sprayed it but the leaf margins on the Chambourcin are definately showing scorch. The Chambourcin also has what appears to be Rupestris speckle OR, as one grower says it may be Ozone damage. Chambourcin is suppose to be an indicator of Ozone.

I made a Seyval Blanc last year that got rave reviews. I think it has the potential to being a good blending grape. It is a prolific producer and can be cropped quite heavily without affecting quality.

I also love Traminnette. I don't grow (no room left) any but I have a source a few miles from me over in Northern Virginia. He gives me commercial rates for the grapes since I used to work for a commercial grower.

The grower said "Do not cold soak because It can make the wine bitter" but this has not been my experience. Two years ago I cold soaked overnight and the wine was terrific. Last year, I did not cold soak overnight and the aromatics were almost absent. Needless to say, I cold soaked this year and I can already tell that the aromatics are there in full force.

I also cold soaked overnight my Chardonnay and Voigner. Mainly it was because of a logistics problem but I think it is going to be good. I have some Chardonnay left to harvest so I am going to do the unmentionable and experiment by actually fermenting it on the skins. I am going to harvest Thursday and I know the pH and TA are going to be outside the range for a typical "White" so it is worth an experiment.

I may try it also this coming season.

Jason,

Vinifera needs to be on rootstock. Period. It is not impossible that you might see freeze damage at some point, but you will without question eventually see phyloxerra to some degree. Freeze damage to graft unions is usually manifested by crown gall infections. You probably don't have the bacteria that causes it in your area. Phyloxerra don't thrive in very sandy soil, but they are all over the country. Even if you avoided a heavy infection that killed your vines quickly, they will eventually cause enough damage to shorten the life of your plants. If you grow hybrids, you might be OK own rooted, although nematodes are also an issue. The guy at Hollywood Hills Vineyards knows more about Regent than anybody in the country, particularly in that area. Listen to him regarding Regent (and Pinot Noir).

Do be particular on the source of your rootstock. A few years ago, there was a lot of rootstock sold that was infected with "black goo", which could be the cause of the dead Chardonnay that was mentioned.

Make sure you carefully consider if 3 x 6 spacing is truly what you want. Maybe that is what you have to do to get the number of vines you want on your available land, but it is tight. Your effective clearance between rows will end up being around 4 feet, and that is if you keep everything trained really well. I heard a talk by a vineyard consultant who is currently recommending 4 x 7 spacing with double trunks and single cane pruned (per trunk). The short canes were used because cordons were considered a repository for disease organisms.

Good Luck,

Stephen