Advise for Vineyard Establishment

I have been keeping track of growing degree days for about 4 years now. I think this is a tool but not the only answer. I think hours of sunlight is as important or more important.

This year I have about 3400 growing degree days thus far but the reds are struggling to ripen with a reasonable brix. Last year at this time I had

This year in the Mid Atlantic has seen a cool July followed by a warm August followed by a cool, cloudy, damp, misty rainy September. Even though we have had the Growing degree days cumulative for the year, there has been a noticeable lack of sunshine. Hopefully your vineyard area is free of shade and in somewhat of a raid shadow.

I did the same thing. After I retired, I worked for a consultant winegrower, and wine maker. I started off working for free but after about a month, one of his clients noticed I was a hard worker and put me on the payroll. I soon had more duties and responsibilities on my own. It was great experience but be careful because some may take advantage of the "free labor".

After I broke my big toe one year cleaning out a fermentation bin (picked it up to drain out water and it slipped out of my hands and landed on my foot), I decided that I wanted to keep winegrowing as a hobby and on a LOT smaller scale than commercial level.

It sounds like you are doing great research and all the things you should be doing. My only further advice is not to underestimate the amount of labor involved. The first couple years are not bad but once you put the vines on the fruiting wire, it gets to be a major factor.

Good luck and keep us informed Paul

Thanks Paul! The summers here are very dry and the hours of sunshine are really long as well...the fight is to get it ripened before october because when it starts raining it doesnt stop until March. Jason

I checked out Tom Judkins and what he offers according to his websight he doesnt have the grapes I need so Cloud Mountain it is...

Thanks again Paul.. I am not too worried about sunshine Wa summers are dry with long days....its just got be picked before it starts rainin and foggin in Oct because it doesnt stop until March!

more later, but here is a weather link.

I personally start with above 50 and below 95 to calculate degree days.

ted

here is the growing degree day calculator for Yelm, WA

ted

Thanks Ted,

ok so i am formulating the plan, sorry if this is boring anyone but you guys are a big help getting the plan squared away.

I have tried recently to use that very calculator and without successful outputs thanks for sending the results ted, 1920.6 growing degrees it is. I was guessing at around 2000 by averaging a map I have that has centralia WA at 2100 and Puyallup WA at 1800, but some hard numbers are nice.

ok so with hard facts in place for growing degrees from Ted here are the fine wine grapes I can ripen.

according to my studies I should be able to ripen, Garanoir, Rondo, Pinot Noir( Precoce) , the Dijon clones, Agria, Regent, Zweigelt, and St Laurent, my eventual goal is to start a small Garagiste Winery devoted to maybe one or two wines, Pinot Noir, Regent, and maybe a Blended wine. Any thoughts on the choices? I was thinking of getting enough for a barrel of Regent, and plant a selection of the others to see what I can grow, what does well, with the goal of working up to a barrel of Pinot. what do you think of these numbers?

all on 3309, even though 101-14 might contibute to earlier ripening even more than 3309 by controlling vigor , 3309 will reduce my need for water I think.

I dropped Garanoir even though its the first to ripen I think it contributes little in wine quality and I replaced it with Zweigelt which ripens a little later but makes a better wine...(according to the books)

the Regent and Rondo are hybrids and the "fallback" the others are to make Pinot and similair reds, I realize that these grapes would need to expand in numbers to about 200 Regent and 300 Pinot to get to a barrel of each, but I will expand as I go...the others are for blending and making a St Laurent blend. is this too many varieties? jay

Keep in mind in your calculations that you need enough wine to keep your barrels topped up. Some of the barreled wine will be lost due to ullage and you need to account for that.

The right wine for you is the one you like. For personal use there are no wrong wines. But, for even a small garagiste winery you need to think of marketability.

Making small lots of different wines is fun. It gives you plenty to do in your spare time. And you have an interesting mix of wines to consume during the year. But, ask yourself, are the wines you are planning to grow, the wines you purchase when you go to your favorite wine shop?

Before I planted any vines I would spend some serious time in local wine shops asking what people in your local area buy. What are the wines they seek out? What WA and OR wines sell? In other words, what is your local wine market? Do any of the wine shops (your potential retail outlets) stock Garanoir, Rondo, Pinot Noir (Precoce) , the Dijon clones, Agria, Regent, Zweigelt, and St Laurent?

A friend and wine maker planted Zweigelt because he likes it. It is good that he still likes it because it does not sell well and he has lots for his own consumption. It is not a name people here recognize and seek out. Nor are Regent, Rondo or a St Laurent blend. If you were in a growing region where vinifera will not grow, and the local wine buyers were familiar with the grapes you have on your list, I would not hesitate to plant the vines you have selected. But I do not believe that to be the case in Yelm. A standard barrel yields 24*- cases. You may have a lot of wine to drink, alone.

ted

That is a good point.

Another point is that when you start thinking marketability, sweet sells.

This is not saying that you should make all your wines sweet but I guarantee you that it will sell.

I know, winemakers are horrified at the idea of making a sweet wine - BUT - a lot of young inexperienced wine drinkers like a sweet wine and those few wineries that do make it, see it fly off their shelves while the purists sit on inventory.

In short, if it is a hobby for you and friends and family, make what you like BUT if you are interested in marketing - make what OTHERS like or think they like because they have not tried all there is to try.

Paul

Well what others like...

I cant go to a wine shop to see what sells I am in Sulu Philippines hangin out with my team, monkeys, Phil Marines dodging falling coconuts and everything else the locals send our way...be here till feb or I would be helping someone pick and crush and asking them dumb questions instead of you kind gentlemen ( if any ladies chime in ladies and gentlemen)...I know the answere anyway

there are some whites...but since i drink so little of them I cant justify making any yet...

basically, Pinot Noir is really the only recognized red wine I can grow, period end of story....and frankly the Average wine drinker doesnt drink it....what most people drink in Yelm is Yellow Tail cab or merlot..and Bud Light ...not that there is anything wrong with that.

I can't grow any other red grape that sells.. its the hardest to grow on my list and I would hate to plant 300 vines for it to all mildew and die my first year...or not ripen fully every year...or at least most years.

St Laurent has a small occult following among those that know it and has many times been blended with Pinot Noir, not in modern Burgundy but it moved to Austria from there or possibly Alsace via some crazy french monks....I think it has a future BUT 35 vines it is for now because you have to be a real wino to know it...so it wont sell

Regent is being successfully commercially produced and sold by Hollywood Hills and is the easiest growing grape that produces a full bodied wine...there are a few acres commercially planted that are under contract but...maybe I should think more carefully about planting alot of it....its just that it WILL produce when Pinot wont...and someone is selling some.

for commercial purposes Pinot Noir is the only answer in Yelm for sellable estate wine...of course i could buy grapes from eastern wa but I want to concentrate on one wine to begin with.

the rest of the grapes I just want to have fun with, almost all of which are easier to grow or they ripen earlier than Pinot....but Pinot is the only commercialy viable option I am sure of that.

Paul.... my planning numbers are 200 vines of Regent and 300 of Pinot to keep a barrel topped off, be able to drop fruit, account for some losses etc...I think that is on the safe side.

As for sweet....fortunately (unfortunately) I will never be able to make the extremely popular BIG SWEET overoaked wines people find in the hot dry places like california..I will have to go after those moody picky aloof elitists that like lighter styled Pinot...(myself included)

Ted...So is this what you were trying to drag out of me? cut the regent and plant pinot? Jay

You are wise 1) to consider Regent, and 2) to not put all your eggs in the Pinot Noir basket. Looking to the future, the low spray requirements of Regent may put you in a good position if environmental restrictions increase or there is more demand for wine with fewer chemicals to grow (both very possible). Also, if those fall rains start a little early, the Pinot Noir will rot and you will have nothing that year.

Regarding sweet wines, is in illegal in Washington to add sugar for commercial wines as it is in California? If not, don't discount the market for sweet wines. In the mid-west and east where hybrids (including Concord and its derivatives) are common, sweet wines are among the best sellers for local wineries. In the case of labrusca hybrids (i.e. Concord), sugar is necessary both before and after fermentation to make a good wine.

Stephen

I did not know that California had laws against adding sugar; not doubting your word but just curious as to why then they are allowed to water down their must to reduce Brix.

At the commercial winery I worked at after retirement here in the Mid Atlantic, the best and fastest selling wine was a white wine with about 3% residual sugar added post sterile filtering and prior to bottling.

It was a blend of Pinot Gris, Traminette and Reisling. The owner of the winery hated to make sweet wine, but hey, it sold a LOT faster than his other wines.

He also insisted on making a dry "Alsacion" style Riesling while his competers made their Riesling with some residual sugar and outsold him.

I do not ever care to go the commercial route because in order to survive in the business, I would be forced to make a wine that sold and sold fast and not especially something that I enjoyed individually.

Jay,

1. The french are good at blends and they sell plenty bottles of wine in which you have no idea what grape is in there. The french have mastered blending. That is an option, make blends or even pure varietals and just give them a catchy name and label. They'll sell, especially if they have sugar. When you go to a winery, ask what their best selling wine is. I do all the time and they always tell me it's the sweet stuff. I like all types of wine. I like the sweet too, especially in the summer. Cataba is a big seller with the women. I think it's the color and sugar. Don't fight the market and don't listen to any wine snob who pretends they don't like sugar. It's sorta like McDonalds, billions served but everyone claims to hate it.

Well,

It is legal to add sugar in WA so that is an option.

Also WA varietal wine only needs to have 75% of that variety...so there are options there as well.

I plan on making wine when I get home by ordering some frozen grapes, and then fresh grapes every year from then on until my own come in.

maybe I should plant at least one white, and explore whites more...I don't dislike white wine its just that when it’s a good time for a white wine, like a nice summer afternoon I'll drink a hoppy IPA and my wife eats chocolate and wants to know why I don't become a chocolateer.

Thanks for all the advice guys; I am taking it in....of course this is for the trial vineyard anyway so I have time before I can clear the other 8 acres anyway.

Jason

I used to make only reds and then I discovered Traminette and the Pinot Gris grown in the area in which I live. I don't know if you are able to grow Pinot Gris in your area but I believe you might. It is an early ripening grape.

The whites are VERY rewarding to make. They are ready to drink very quickly and you have something to show for your efforts while your reds age. I harvest whites in September and am drinking them by February. The reds I make really need about 18 months to start coming around nicely. Also you can experiment with whites by blending and making non traditional whites. For example, I do not like the oaky, buttery, barrel aged Chardonnay but I really do enjoy the crisp, non oaky, non ML Chardonnay.

Paul

"I used to make only reds and then I discovered Traminette and the Pinot Gris grown in the area in which I live. I don't know if you are able to grow Pinot Gris in your area but I believe you might. It is an early ripening grape. "

I had a fabulous Virginia Traminette the other day. It was spicy fruity with a little residual sugar. I'm not sure that it will ripen in your area, but it might and would be worth checking on. It is 1/2 Gewurztraminer.

Stephen

As for whites, Here are the WSU recommendations; Siegerrebe, Madeleine Angevine, Muller-Thurgau and Pinot Gris other lesser known posibilities, Iskorko, Burmunk , Ortega, Optima, Sylvaner, Auxerrois Blanc and if I consistantly get above 1900 every year...Chardonnay, Sauvignon Blanc, Red Traminer ( not sure if thats the same as your Traminette...

Here is the basic info for Traminette.