sanitization question

I use 50g powdered KMS(potssium metabisulphite) in 4 litres of boiling water for sanitizing everything. You can rinse with ditilled water afterwards if you desire.

The most common sanitizer is sodium metabiosulfite or potassium metabiosulfite. Sodium meta is cheaper and a great sanitizer. It should not be used in the wine. For that use the Potassium meta, so it is a good idea to have both. The instructions for mixing a sanitizing solution is given on the package when you get it. You should mix in some citric acid when you make the solution. This will enhance the action and I think it makes it keep longer. A solution should be good for several months and then needs to be used fresh. When you clean your carboys and are going to store them, pour a few tablespoons in each and seal it with plastic wrap. It will be sanitized when you need it 6 months or a year later.

If your rubber bungs smell of rubber, soak them in the solution for a few days and they will probably loose the smell. They should not be in contact with the wine anyway but I agree that you should get rid of the smell before use.

Ray

There seems to be a popular misconception that tap water is not "sanitary". Unless you are getting your water untreated from a well in the middle of a cow pasture or something, it's sanitary enough for all ordinary purposes. The advantage of "no-rinse" sanitizers is convenience.

If you don't believe me, mix some tapwater with a small amount of malt extract that's been separate boiled in some water (to sanitize anything in the extract, not the water). Bottle it and wait for it to spoil. You will be waiting a long time I think. I actually tried this once. After two weeks nothing had happened.

In my experience, the primary source of microbial contamination is inadequate physical cleaning. A drop of must or wort is left inside some piece of equipment and grows something, which later gets transferred to your wine or beer. Sanitizers are no substitute for elbow grease.

--arne

Here, here, Arne.

I use brushes and soda ash to wash and plenty of tap water to rinse. Having already tested the wine for SO2 I put the amount of potasium metabisulphite needed into the freshly rinsed container and rack. It's simple and it works.

Frank

I am somewhat new to this newsgroup also...but have been reading it for some time now. I have been making wine for a few years now and have NEVER sanitized with anything other than tap water and anti-bacterial handsoap. I have never had a problem. I have never had a batch of wine go bad from my sterilizing practices. In order to have bacteria or fungus grow on your equipment it must have something to "feed" upon so as long as you wash and rinse thoroughly (tap water is fine), you won't ever have a problem...I speak from experience. You need to be cognizant of the potential for contamination, but there is no need to be paranoid. Sanitizers and sterilizers do serve a vital purpose in winemaking, and are even necessary at times, but let's remember that the ancient Sumerians were able to make wine without them several thousand years ago...you can too.

Hi

What do you do when racking into the secondary fermentation vessels?

How does one clean/sanitize the siphon?

Thanks,

David

...

David wrote "There are a number of products on the market and I'm not sure which to use. Some of them advertise as "no rinse". Does that mean some other products require a rinse? In that case what do you rinse with? Tap water? If that were true why bother sanitizing at all?"

The no-rinse sanitizer I'm most familiar with is Iodophor. I have, and you can use this product to sanitize (actually sterilize I believe would be the proper term) bottles and equipment without rinsing and it will not affect the flavor of beer or wine. I would caution to not let residues of Iodophor solution dry on bottle walls as it can form a thin film that remains after you add beer or wine.

If you use Chlorox you must rinse at least three times with water (use previously boiled tap water if you're worried about it). Trust me, I learned the hard way that Chlorox residue can add really bad flavors and can kill residule yeast if you are trying to naturally carbonate beer. Probably would affect champagne yeast the same way.

Most winemakers us sulfite as a sanitizer. Others have given good advise on sodium and/or potassium metabisulfite use. No need to rinse these from your containers or bottles as you will have added some sulfite to your wine.

Finally, it has been said many times on this forum that no pathogenic microorganisms can live in wine. Some winemakers, myself included, just make sure that the equipment and bottles are very clean before use.

Bill Frazier Olathe, Kansas USA

David, Wash the siphon with clean water as soon as you finish racking. Then hang the siphon up so it will drain completely and dry out.

And in a past life, you had some of this Sumerian wine and can comment knowledgeably on its quality?

Shall we emulate their medical practices for health care, too?

Sorry, referencing the practices of ancients is rarely a strong defense of anything.

Brian

Glad to, it's called Star San. It's used by brewers and has far better sanitation properties than sulfites. It is an acid based sanitizer that keeps for months in solution. It is a completely odorless, tasteless, no rinse sanitizer that needs only a 2 minute contact time. Best of all, you won't find yourself gasping for clean air when you open the container of solution. Mix the concentrate up with distilled or RO water for best storage ability. If your local shop doesn't carry it, there's always the internet.

Brian

Could somebody enlighten me about using pasteurized juice? I'm guessing that a must that as been boilled will not evolved in a wine identical to one that was not. Is there any benefit to this? Any drawbacks?

products

Sanitizing doesn't mean sterilizing. If your tap water is good enough for you to drink, it's good enough to rince a fermenting vessel.

Winemaking involves reactions between unrinced fruits that were exposed to all that you can find in a field + some form of treatment (chemical or not) and living micro-organism. Care in handling all material and good hygiene should be used at all time to avoid undesired organisms spoilling the wine but no need to go overboard.

I used a bleach base product to clean my equipement that had been sitting in a barn unused for a few years. I rinced with plenty of tap water via a garden hose and did a I final rince using a potassium metasulfite solution. I added sodium metasulfite to the must prior to inoculating the yeast and after racking from the secondary fermentation vessel. As I'm writting, the wine is aging nicely without showing any signs of spoillage (thanks to those who advise me on how to bring the brix down).

I would not worry about this. You can leave them in a potassium metasulfite solution a day or two if you wish.

Best of luck,

Stefan Mazur

I use dish soap and water to clean everything right after use, then sanitize with star-san. I used to use bleach, but found out later it could pit stainless steel and other materials, so switched to iodophor, but I like the star-san because it can be re-used for quite awhile (as long as pH remains below 3).

Because of the way chlorine can combine with something in cork to cause a type of corkiness, I believe most professional winemakers are keeping bleach completely away from the winery if they're using real cork.

You bring up a good point that I do not have any knowledge of the quality of ancient Sumerian wines; however, I *am* qualified to comment on the quality of my own wines. As I said, I have never had any wine spoil using my techniques. And since you brought up 'medical practices', our doctor told us that baby bottles can be completely sterilized in the dishwasher instead of the age old practice of soaking them in boiling water on the stovetop. What this means to everyone is that there are many ways to make sure that your winemaking equipment is free from "nasties". If you feel that you need a $6000 autoclave to do your sterilizing, I'm sure that you can find one on e-bay. If you only feel comfortable using bleach or commercial sanitizers, then by all means use them. If you feel comfortable boiling your equipment, that will work too. I have consistently and successfully just used plain old soap and water without any problems. Cleanliness is critical, obviously, but I was merely making the point that there is no reason to go overboard if it isn't needed. This thread started with a simple question about cleanliness and everyone with an opinion has added their 2 cents. Personally, I don't like being put down simply because my approach is different from someone else's.

"Brian Lundeen" wrote in message news:d2fvsr$amm$ snipped-for-privacy@domitilla.aioe.org...

WOW! This seems to be a conroversial subject, but I'll go out on a limb:

IMHO potasium (or sodium) metabisulphite is a poor surface sanitizer. It works great in must due to the acidity. Also, I use the same equipment for brewing beer and it is inadvisable to get potasium (or sodium) metabisulphite anywhere near beer.

Generally speaking, if everything is cleaned thoroughly then sanitizing is probably not truly necessary for winemaking. However, to be on the safe side sanitizing is not bad insurance.

Like many others, I like Star-San. It is effective and safe for just about all materials. I also like iodophor for pretty much the same reasons, though it requires a longer period of contact and it can discolor plastic. I do use chlorine because it is so inexpensive. But chlorine will pit stainless steel, so I only use it on glass and plastic. Even at recommended dilutions, I do not consider any of the above to be "no-rinse" -- especially for beer. I rinse with either boiled water or a solution of "One-Step".

Generally I use chlorine for everything but stainless, I use iodophor for stainless, and I rinse with One-Step. I came up with these procedures after consulting a microbiologist and these procedures have served me well.

Truitt Smith

Like you I make both beer and wine and I basically use the same procedures for both. I keep two buckets of solution ready for use. One is Iodophor and the other is PDW (Profesional Brewers Wash. I belive that this is chlorine based). When I have enough emptied bottles they go into the PDW and then get rinsed off with tap water, allowed to dry and stored for future use. This removes labels from wine bottles and deposits from beer bottles. When ready to bottle, I go through the same procedure, excepting using Iodophor in placec ofPBW). Both solutions are also used where relevant on all the other equipment. On primary fermenters mechanical means ( brushes ) are also necessary. As a rinsing agent, tap water from a a municipal supply will remove the chlorine and iodine down to negligable levels and is safe. It will not however sanitize, I like PBW as it is stable. When it gets dirty I have other uses. Before I throw it out, I use it to clean bird feeders or other similar items . Cheers BoB G.

Then I guess we should give up on breathing, eating and sex too. What a dolt.

sanitizers,

You must consider the source; Brian is an idiot.

I did not put you down, nor your sanitation practices. I was simply making a point that the old ways of doing things are not the best. There is certainly a case for wine not needing surface sanitization (please stop using sterilization in this context), just good cleanliness and sufficient levels of free SO2 in the wine to protect against spoilage organisms. I make wine from grapes, so I fully understand that winemaking does not need an operating room. Still, I have an excellent sanitizer for my beer (which does need it), and it doesn't add appreciably to the time spent on my cellar work, so I use it as an added precaution.

Brian

Chlorine must be rinsed, but it has been demonstrated over and over that in the recommended concentrations, neither Iodophor nor Star San require rinsing. Iodophor should be very well drained, but Star San, you can leave some foam behind. It is completely undetectable. Or is it that dodecylbenzenesulphonic acid has too many syllables for you to consider it safe to ingest? ;-)

Brian