sanitization question

You can say that again.

Not according to a chemist and a biologist I've talked to. In the concentrations we use to as a sanitizing agent, Pot. Meta is very effective. It also has other valuable properties like neutralizing chlorine which is the bane of wine and beer makers. Plus you don't really have to worry about residue because it is widely added to wine anyway. IMHO, the only true no rinse, although Idophor and Star San are probably pretty safe too.

Just acidify your solution with a little tartaric or citric acid. I don't bother because at 12.5 g Pot. Meta to a liter of water I've never had anything grow in it. I even store my carboys bunged with solution in there and have never had anything grow in them.

That's just not true. I use Pot. Meta in my brewing water to neutralize chlorine and chloromines. It's been reported that some commercial UK brews add it for product stability and some people are starting to add it to their mash.

It can also neutralize the SO2 many wine makers add to the wine so if used as no rinse you may have to add more Pot. Meta to compensate.

Chlorine bleach has so many bad properties and so much potential downside, I completely eliminated it in the brewery/winery. It may be cheap but no sanitizer I see commonly used is really that expensive. It's a small price to pay for piece of mind.

Andy

As I said, controversial.

Granted it is an old text, but according to Greg Noonan's "Brewing Lager Beer" metabisuphite is "antifermentive, not bactericidal."

Noonan also refered to sodium hypochlorite (bleach) as "a very effective sterilant." and stated that at a dilution of .2 percent it requires no rinsing.

However, your point that meta will neutralize chlorine and chloromines is well taken.

Cheers, Truitt

Really well said Arne.

I used to work on sterilizers and the first rule of sterilization is clean the heck out of whatever you want to sterilize. You cannot sterilize an instrument with debris on it. A local hospital just got some people incredibly sick due to improper cleaning of instruments, I think at least 1 died.

Sanitizing follows the same logic. If it does not look or smell clean, it's not. I clean with dishwashing detergent but prefer Alconox when I get around to buying it. It doesn't have any of those ridiculous scents most detergent makers now feel compelled to add.

I follow that with a spritz of 1/2 teaspoon potassium meta and 1 teaspoon citric per quart of tapwater in a spray bottle. That works out to an acidic 1% solution of sulfite (approximately). I use that up in a few months or so, depending on time of year. I've never had issues following this process.

Joe

Not to be argumentative but I simply do not buy the 'sterilant' comment, especially when applied to bleach. It's a sanitzer, a cleaner. Sterility is difficult to acheive and almost impossible to maintain over any length of time. It's also not necessary in wine or beer making unless you are culturing yeast slants in beer making as far as I am concerned.

A 10% solution of common 5% household bleach is a great sanitizer but I rarely use it in wine or beer making. If I had vinegar in a carboy and had decided to reuse it for wine, I would use bleach. I often get used bottles back that I preclean with that 10% solution also. (I have no idea why someone would not rinse a bottle prior to returning it, but it happens more often than not...)

I do agree Noonan is an expert beermaker, I have that book too and use it often. I just think the word 'sterile' is often misused in wine and beer making circles.

Joe

He started it.

Bob just got my undivided attention.

Kindly explain (in 500 words or less) why my response makes me an idiot. If you extrapolate (that basically means to expand, Bob) what I wrote into a more general framework, you see there was a valid point to be made beyond the sanitation practices of ancient Sumerians. It has to do with an over-reliance on traditional winemaking methodologies, at the expense of knowledge that scientific study has made available to us over the years. There is undeniably a certain rustic charm to wine made the way Grandpa did back home in Portugal (or wherever), indeed I have personally enjoyed the experience of grabbing a tumbler and dipping it into a communal pail of freshly fermented plonk alongside a few other old country grape buyers in a little shop on a cool fall morning with wasps buzzing lazily about in a drunken, placid state. But that doesn't mean I would recommend their methods to people looking to improve their winemaking skills.

But really, we both know this wasn't about anything I said to Dan. You just have a long memory about things I've said about you in the past. Really Bob, after having this festering in you for ages, is that the best you could come up with? Brian is an idiot? Well, if it makes you feel better....

Forsooth, I am stung to the quick. Or something like that.

Brian

As I said before, I am new to this newsgroup...so I don't really know if the two of you guys (Bob and Brian) have debated before, but I get the impression that you guys are old friends. First of all, I would like to say to Brian that I realize your comments about a possible past life as an ancient Sumerian were meant as humor even though I had later said that I felt "put down". Even I am capable of understanding and appreciating the subtle nuances of civil sarcasm, unlike Bob. I actually chuckled when I read it and called my wife over so she could laugh too. It was a great one-liner!!! I would also like to say to Bob that the short one line retort of "Brian is an idiot" gave me an even bigger laugh than the one about being an ancient Sumerian alcoholic in a past life. You guys are great!!!! I really don't want to have anyone upset at me since I love this newsgroup and plan on being a little more active in it as time goes on. But I do feel somewhat responsible for you guys bickering on this particular thread since it started when I mentioned using only soap and water to clean my equipment. Is this bickering an ongoing thing between the two of you or did I somehow spark a fire by my comments of sanitation?

"Brian Lundeen" wrote in message news:d2sui5$sit$ snipped-for-privacy@domitilla.aioe.org...

Hardly ongoing. I think I took a couple of shots at him long ago, and those elephant genes of his kicked in. I guess he figured the enemy of my enemy is my friend and leapt to your defense. Not sure where Bob went after my response. Perhaps my eloquence left him speechless, perhaps he's just busy trolling in alt.jaw.slack. I don't really post here that much anymore. A quick perusal of some topics, then it's off to my main hangout, rec.crafts.brewing, where I'm a proud card carrying member of the FA's. Yeah, it means what you think it means. Well, I'm glad you weren't offended by my flippant comments. I'd hate to see you spending time in the sulk room with Bob. He's really not very good company. ;-)

Brian