vinifera varieties and training

90% of vinifera grown in the US is now VSP trained. (According to kentucky vitologist, anywho)

To say cordon pruned vs. cane pruned is incorrect somehow. Cane and spur prune both use cordons. The cordons are the "arms" off the main trunk that sport the canes or spurs, unless "head" pruned, which is another ball of wax entirely....

Vinifera typically want to grow vertically vs. trailing habitat for american and some french hybrids. Vins with VSP have low cordons with catch wires to position the shoots that grow up out of the cane/spurs left after spring pruning (hence, VSP - veritcal shoot positioning).

Here in the midwest where more hybrids and american grapes are grown, the single wire high cordon system is often used. These also use cordons (at about 6' high versus 3' high for low cordons), but the cane/spur shoots are combed downward after grape set to gain sunlight/exposure.

forgive me if i seem too "know it all" just went to a pruning seminar today and fresh with info presented.

Hi Woodwerks!

All right, let me get some terms right then....

What is the generic name for a system that trains a single trunk with no old-wood horizontal 'arms'? In which the grapes are produced from a 1 year old cane from the single central trunk retained from last years growth?

What is the generic name for a system that trains a single trunk to the low wire of a trellis, then trains two permanent opposing horizontal 'arms' which are retained year after year? In which grapes are produced from pruned one year old canes left on the 'arms' at regular intervals (4" or 6") along the permanent horizontal old wood arms?

I get the VSP stuff all right, and intend to do that.

And then how can I find which system is 'right' for a given variety?

Thanks Woodwerks, sure appreciate your time!

Take Care Steve Oregon

Cane Pruned. Generally two canes are left - in some cases more.

It is not really a "System" System is generally used to describe the type of trellising.

Cordon Spur Pruned

The only terminology correction I would make to what you said is that the one year old pruned (usually to two buds) "canes" are now called "Spurs", hence the term cordon spur pruned.

I can not help you here. All the varieties I grow are cordon spur pruned. There are some varieties, however, in which the first couple buds on a cane are either not productive or not very productive. These varieties have the most fruitful buds further out on the cane. You would want to cane prune these varieties because if you cordon spur pruned them, you would only have non productive or very low productive buds left after pruning.

I suggest you visit a vineyard near you and ask the winegrower or call your county agriculture extension agent. Of course, after the first or second year, (the year in which you establish your cordons), all your vines will in effect be "cane pruned". Watch and see if there is a difference in fruitfullness of the buds along the one year old cane. A word of caution, however, if you leave too much length on a new cordon, you will see severe terminal dominance and all your energy will go to the ends of the one year old cane and you will have barren areas in the center.

I have heard that Gamay does best on cane pruned vines. I know Cabernet Sauv. does well on cordon spur pruned vines as does Chardonnay, Shiraz and Sauv. Blanc. This does not mean, however that you could not cane prune some of them and see if there is a difference. Whichever system you use, choose a trellising system that gives the most sunlight to the buds on the canes. The fruitfulness for next year is determined by the amount of sunlight on this years buds.

Hope this helps Paul

Head trained, cane pruned.

Cordon trained, spur pruned

Some varieties do not have fruitful basil buds, so cane pruning is often used on these grapes. The "right" system depends on the growing conditions as well as the variety.

Thanks Everyone!

My surfing, reading and digging thru the archives of this ng tells me there is no colleration to training, trellis or pruning systems based on variety. I find absolutely no list ofsuggested starting points, recommendations, or consistancy whatsoever.

Well, Jim Cox has some recommendations, page 61 which lists all possible systems for vinifera based on 'east' or 'west' (not 'north' or 'south'?) Lombaugh (Growing Grapes) has suggestions in the descriptions of grape variety, which lacks the varieties I would like to grow. There is one exception.

Everthing I've heard or read so far says Pinot Noir is finicky, not vigorous and should be trained/pruned using canes. Since those characteristics accompany the suggested training/pruning I have no idea what conclusion I should draw from that. And, since I don't intend to grow that grape... well it's only so useful.

I was hoping to not reinvent the wheel, but it sounds like that's what every vine needs! All right then, onward and upward.

Thanks for all the responses folks, I appreciate your thoughts and time!

Steve - Noobie Oregon

Noobie,

What you really need to concentrate on right now is your trunk system. All systems start the same way , with a straight trunk. Don't get to caught up in the terminology. I would just concentrate on growing 2 canes this year straight up , as far as they can go.Then those canes that were grown this year can either be kept for trunks next year ( or maybe just keep 1 depending on your winter conditions) or cut back and started again next year. After the second year of growth you could bend them in opposite directions at the fruiting wire to form your first year of caned pruned vines. All cordons start as caned pruned vines the first year you start the cordons!

Bob

Forgot to mention something. Canes are very brittle and have a tendency to break off if "forced" to grow in a certain direction BEFORE bloom. when your vines begin to grow don't put to much pressure on the canes to straighten them. They should be fine for the first month and half without any intervention. It's hard to explain, but my gist is, don't force the canes shooting up, to the wire until after bloom. Bloom is when you'll see the little clusters turn into "chia pets" ( actually they are considered flowers until after bloom) wait until the chia pets are "not furry" anymore and bloom is over. I usually wait at least another week before starting to train the canes. Obviously, there are exceptions but that is basically the rule I use.

Bob

Thanks Bob, appreciate the pointers!

Steve Vegos