acidity vs tannins

I've read a basic level article from my wines store on tasting. It mentions that a sour(tart) taste is related to acidity and a bitter taste in the back part of the tongue relates to tannin levels.

As basic as this is, is this a reasonable explanation. I just had a "wine of the month"

SHIRAZ 1999 VINTAGES 960435 750 mL bottle

Wine, Still Table Wine, Red Still Table Wine

14.0% Alcohol/Vol. Sugar Content : D

Made in: South Australia, Australia By: Brokenwood Wines Release Date: May 18, 2002

I was hoping for a smooth easy drinking ,full bodied fruity wine but tasted a dry(seemed XD), peppery(spicy), medium bodied that was not "jammy" enough for me. Question: (finally) When I described this wine as too "dry" for my likes. Would I be referring to a too acidic wine or too tannic for my preference?

TIA

(from a guy who obviously needs wine tasting 101) ;-} Larry Stumpf, S. Ontario, Canada

Reply to
Larry
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More or less. The tannins are not exactly bitter, more like the mouth puckering astringency of tea that has steeped too long.

Too dry refers to a lack of mellowness, and as a result a wine where one only notices the acidity and the tannicity. You might describe such a wine as hard, severe.

Mike

Reply to
Mike Tommasi

Most relatively inexperienced tasters equate harsh tannins with "dryness". The fact is that you might perceive a young, fruity, low tannin red wine, e.g. Beaujolais Nouveau, as "sweet" compared to the tannic young Shiraz you described - but they (as most red table wines) probably both have about the same residual sugar, which is close to zero.

Tom S

Reply to
Tom S

Larry, The "dryness" you describe is almost certainly the astringency of young tannins. As Mike said, this is the same sensation you'll get from over-extracted tea or banana peel. FWIW, when trying a young, tannic red wine, you may find it useful to have some food at hand (such as an aged Cheddar cheese or sausage pieces) to help reduce the astringency of the tannins and let you appreciate the other aspects of the wine. As you become a more experienced taster, you'll learn how to factor out the tannins when tasting a young red.

HTH Mark Lipton

Reply to
Mark Lipton

Thank you Mike, Tom, Mark, and Dan.

Last question. Would a wine like this(I seem to pick a lot of young shirzes) "mellow" very much in say 2-3 years or would this be the basic character of the wine no matter how long you cellar it?

Many thanks,

Larry Stumpf, S. Ontario, Canada

Reply to
Larry

If you detect a drying/puckering sensation on your tounge or the insides of your mouth it is probably the _astringency_ associated with the tannins that you are experiencing (similar to a sensation you might get with drinking tea). It is often associated with bitterness, but is not the same thing in terms of how it registers with the receptors that lead to your preceptions . . . astringency is more of a tactile sensation, while bitterness is one of the 5 basic tastes.

Also, be aware that the term dry is often associated with sweetness in wine. Red wine tends always to be dry, while white wines can have various levels of sweetness . . . bone dry, dry, medium dry (off dry), sweet.

justin

Reply to
Justin

Larry, That's *exactly* why we do cellar wines. I assure you that I get no particular pleasure from salting away a powerhouse red wine for 10+ years, but the end in this case does justify the means: the tannins mellow out and become smooth, the fruit of its youth comes forward and new, interest flavors emerge. Different folks like their wines at differing stages of maturity. I am a relative oenopaedophile compared to the likes of Ian Hoare, Bill Spohn and John Taverner (to name but a few) -- yet I still age many wines for a decade or more before drinking them. You will make up your own mind about how long to give them before they reach their peak in your eyes. That's why it's so useful to buy multiple bottles of a wine and drink it at various stages of its development. You learn not only about the wine, but also about your own tastes. Too many people use Robert Parker's or the Wine Spectator's "expected maturity" as some sort of gospel, when in fact it assumes a common set of tastes and storage conditions, neither of which is a particularly good assumption.

HTH Mark Lipton

Reply to
Mark Lipton

Hey Mark I can tell you really wanted to say , "well......duhhhhh!" ;-}

Thanks Mark, I think I know now not to "condemn" a wine before it hs had it's chance to shine.

Larry Stumpf, S. Ontario, Canada

Reply to
Larry

The tannin taste will definitely disappear as the wine matures. Indeed, the trick of tasting a young red wine is to try to figure out how the wine's taste will evolve as it matures. The basic question is whether there is enough fruit behind the tannins that will remain once the tannins drop out. With a good wine, as it ages the tannins dissipate, the fruit becomes more dominant, and the wine flavours become more complex. With a bad wine, the tannins dissipate, the lack of fruit become more obvious, and you're left with bland, uninteresting, watery red liquid.

Reply to
Dan Haggarty

Dryness is a lack of sweetness. As to Tannin vs Acidity, Tannin is an atribute of a good aged red wine, much of it imparted through aging in oak barrels (as to taste, too much tannin is like a cup of tea that has been steeped too long, whereas acidity a pleasing attribute of some lighter reds but mostly in white wines) Too much acidity is like too much lemon in your tea. If you want to try one of the most acidic wines in the world try Muscadet from the Rhone Valley. It is too acid for most foods, but is awesome with clams & oysters. It's almost like drinking lemon juice. If this helps give me a shout. Carl

After Malvern Hill Pres. Lincoln visited with Gens. Mc Clellen & Sumner as well as Col. Nugent (Commander of the Irish Brigade.)` A Lt. James. M. Birmingham, Adjutant of the 88th N. Y. came from a swim in the James R. & with his underwear drying on his body saw them talking. He ducked behind some cover to eavesdrop in time to see & hear Pres. Lincoln (overcome with emotion at the bravery & sacrifice of the Irish Brigade.) as he lifted a corner of the 69th N. Y.'s flag, kissed it & said "God bless this Irish flag" From Joseph Bilby's book "Remember Fontenoy" on the Irish Brigade Lancaster Civil War Round Table Website

formatting link
Carl Speros webmaster.

Reply to
E. Carl Speros

] Dryness is a lack of sweetness. As to Tannin vs Acidity, Tannin is an ] atribute of a good aged red wine, much of it imparted through aging in ] oak barrels (as to taste, too much tannin is like a cup of tea that has ] been steeped too long, whereas acidity a pleasing attribute of some ] lighter reds but mostly in white wines) Too much acidity is like too ] much lemon in your tea. If you want to try one of the most acidic wines ] in the world try Muscadet from the Rhone Valley. It is too acid for most ] foods, but is awesome with clams & oysters. It's almost like drinking ] lemon juice. If this helps give me a shout. Carl ] ]

Oh for goodness sakes. Muscadet is not from the Rhone Valley, it's from the mouth of the Loire near Nantes. It tastes nothing like lemon juice. If you've been getting overly acidic Muscadet, I suggest you try a different producer.

When you say that muscadet and shellfish go well together, no one will disagree.

-E

Reply to
Emery Davis

Wrong!!!

After Malvern Hill Pres. Lincoln visited with Gens. Mc Clellen & Sumner as well as Col. Nugent (Commander of the Irish Brigade.)` A Lt. James. M. Birmingham, Adjutant of the 88th N. Y. came from a swim in the James R. & with his underwear drying on his body saw them talking. He ducked behind some cover to eavesdrop in time to see & hear Pres. Lincoln (overcome with emotion at the bravery & sacrifice of the Irish Brigade.) as he lifted a corner of the 69th N. Y.'s flag, kissed it & said "God bless this Irish flag" From Joseph Bilby's book "Remember Fontenoy" on the Irish Brigade Lancaster Civil War Round Table Website

formatting link
Carl Speros webmaster.

Reply to
E. Carl Speros

Not much point in posting a one word answer (to what?).

And get rid of that ridiculous long sig file - quite tedious.

Oh, sorry, didn't notice you were a web tv type. Figures, I guess.

Reply to
Bill Spohn

Bullshit.

M.

Reply to
Michael Pronay

While good Muscadet of course has some zippy acidity, you're of course right that it's nothing like lemon juice. You couldn't even say that about Savennieres, which is probably the most acidic wine I know (and one of my personal favorites).

Thanks Emery for the nice synopsis of Muscadet. Are you familiar with the wines of Marc Olliver (Domaine de Pepiere)?

Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

Reply to
Dale Williams
[] ] Thanks Emery for the nice synopsis of Muscadet. Are you familiar with the wines ] of Marc Olliver (Domaine de Pepiere)? ]

Hi Dale,

Can't say I am. Sounds like one to look for!

-E

Reply to
Emery Davis

Sounds right to me.

If much of tannin were attributed to oak aging, then aged whites would be tanninc too (and of course, they are, but not reallly).

Tannin is more an attribute of young brash reds, and through aging the tannin gets rounded out and some new oak tannins are added, but of a different kind.

A non-light red destined for long aging has to have a good acid backbone or it will not age, it will just fade. So it is not just in light reds.

Try chenin from the loire.

No it is not.

What has this got to do with it?

Mike

Reply to
Mike Tommasi

No rule without exception. Bordeaux reds from 1947, 1953, 1959, 1982,

1989, and 2000 were all low in acidity - and have been criticized in their youth for exactly this fact - but have kept beautifully.

M.

Reply to
Michael Pronay

I should take your advise Mark. I don't buy enough cases of things.

With regard to the expected maturity, even with a fixed set of storage conditions and tastes, bottle variation is significant with older wines. So if I take my geriatric tastes in wine and two different bottles of the same wine from my cellar, one may by chance be far more foreward (ready) than another.

I think this is something all of us with cellars are aware of, but it something a new taster needs to understand. This is another reason not to take the wine writer's opinions on drinking windows as gospel.

So why was my 93 Beaune Montremenots (Mussy) so lacking in fruit? Another bottle last year was great. Maybe my TCA insensitive palate could not detect a possible problem, or maybe its just dumb now. I have no way of being sure.

Tom Schellberg

Reply to
Xyzsch

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