California Wine Tours (Need advice)

Greetings;

Napa valley St. Helena area (enough wineries to give you a belly full and then some) Lunch at Tre Vigne

Thanks for the reply. I'm looking for a more structured tour since I don't know much about the area. I'm also looking for something that won't require me to drive around myself.

Both Napa and Sonoma are great but you can see more in Napa as most of the major wineries are just off Highway 29 and the Silverado Trail. When you are in San Francisco you can arrange to have your hotel set you up with a Limo service that specializes in wine country tours. It will cost you but it will give you what you want. As suggested Tre Vigne is great. You might try Mustards which is just north of Yountville. You can find some nice B&Bs in Yountville and one of the best places to eat in the US is the French Laundry. If to go there make your reservation about thirty days in advance. When I am there I normally stay at the Vintage Inn or the Napa Valley Lodge both in Yountville. Both those hotels can arrange limo tours for you. There is also the Wine Train that tours part of Napa. They also feed you.

I've seen the wine train tour on TV, what are your opinions on that?

in article snipped-for-privacy@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net at snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote on 7/31/05 12:11 PM:

Sorry if any of this is too basic, but I'd like to offer the following thoughts.

The Wine Train is not a tour. You get on a vintage train in Napa and it takes you up the center of the valley, serves you dinner, and brings you back..... you never leave the train. You will be driving the same route to visit the majority of the wineries anyway. While the train has a wine car, and you can taste a lot of wines, they are not usually from the wineries you might want to visit on your own. I'm not really knocking the Wine Train, but it is the most 'touristy' attraction in the Valley and I wouldn't suggest that it is worth your time if you're only there for a short while.

The limo idea is really the way to go, given your specific parameters, but it will get pricey. I believe there are services that will pick you up in San Francisco and, being based in either valley, can work with your itinerary while there. But they charge $50 and hour and up. If you require their services over a couple of 8 to 10 hour days.......... well, it will really add up. I'd suggest renting a car in SF and driving to the wine area of your choice, then using a local limo service as needed (ie- for the winery visits only). But....... if your budget will handle it, just go the whole nine yards and enjoy yourself.

As to choosing between Napa and Sonoma: I agree that you can cover more territory, more quickly, in Napa, but Sonoma is much more laid back and less crowded, especially on weekends. Most Sonoma wineries don't charge for tastings, while almost all in Napa do, but if you're going the whole limo route that cost may not be of any consequence. There are more than enough superb wineries in both areas, though, so you can't go wrong either way. I do think there are many more really good restaurant choices in Napa, though.

One important thing....... a very large number of great wineries do not have open tasting rooms, but you can taste by appointment, so make sure to either plan your tasting in advance, or let the limo company know what you want to cover, so they can arrange it for you.

I agree completely on the wine train. If one is also "train buff," or they want to just kick back and let the scenery roll past with a glass of wine, it's OK. If one wants some serious wine tasting, then this might be a bit on the light side. When I did it, the food was so-so, on the train, but I hear they have kicked it up, and have a new executive chef. I also feel that the train is best for two-three couples, just to have a bit of a party, while riding the train.

Rental car to either/both valleys is the best bet, THEN schedule the limo for that valley. Another couple can certainly help defray the costs, and can also add to the fun. I would also schedule many of your tastings before hand, as some taste by appointment only. A note: don't schedule these too closely together, as I always spend more time, than I ever anticipated, and you wouldn't want to have to cut short a great visit, just because you have an appointment down the road. Get a map of the valley's wineries, and plot out a progression, say S to N on Hwy 29 in Napa, then the next day, N to S on Silverado Trail. There are enough really good wineries right on, or immediately off of these two routes, to keep you busy for 3-4 days. Also, I'd not miss the Diamond Mtn and Spring Mtn areas of Napa, and they are slightly off the beaten path, as are some producers, like Cain. All worth the extra few miles.

Sonoma is a bit more spread out, and the wineries are not as close to one another. However, there are great wineries there, and so very many are worth the driving, especially if a professional is doing it. While you can cross over - Oakville Cross and Calistoga, I always stay in one valley, then move to the other, even if you have a limo. A rental car makes this a bit easier.

I agree completely. Though two Sonoma restaurants that I can recommend are Pinot Blanc, and Charlie Palmer's Dry Creek Kitchen, both in Healdsburg. Napa restaurants that I have enjoyed are: The French Laundry, Mustard's, and Tre Vigne (all already mentioned), and I would add Bistro Jeanty in Yountville.

Could not agree more.

While I love the B&B route, and there are tons of great ones, many attached to wineries, I've had great service from the Villageo in Yountville. Their concierge service has been excellent, even getting us into the French Laundry, when I'd already pulled every "string" that I could, and came up empty. Many of the rooms are quite romantic with fireplaces, and plenty of room, plus they have a nice health club. While lacking that wonderful "local" touch of a good B&B proprietor, and a bit more expensive, they should be able to make all the arrangements for the limo, and will probably have additional pull to get appointments for tastings.

Now, all you have to do is try and decide on which wineries are "Must Do's" and then leave room for those wonderful gems that you might never have heard of. Also, ask the tasting room staff for recommendations on wineries that say, "do Cabs in the style that you do." This is provided that you LIKE that particular style, whatever it is. Most staff members, who are serious about wine, travel to many other wineries, and are happy to help you find some great ones, especially if they are not the larger, more commercial places. Napa is a small community, and wine-makers, and staff try to help everyone in the local trade. There is not much competition within the ranks, and most are glad to share their knowledge with you.

Good luck, and remember, we expect some tasting notes, highlights, and even any lowlights, from your trip.

Hunt

[SNIP] [SNIP]

Frank,

Also see Richard Neidich's post, "The Road Less Traveled... " from 07/30. He gives a few "gems" in it.

Hunt

"Lawrence Leichtman" in news: snipped-for-privacy@news.east.cox.net:

Let me repeat something from David Yee, posted on a Bay Area newsgroup 21 July 1987, message ("on the ARPA net" -- Yee) concerning fun things to do in the Bay Area. | | I strongly recommend Sonoma Valley as oppose to Napa | Valley. In Napa, one is treated as a tourist. Tasters are | cattle and the whole thing feels as Amaerican cheese tastes. | ... In Sonoma, the wineries are small. The wine maker himself | often pours the wine, and the people are very friendly. Take | a picnic lunches most of the wineries also have picnic grounds.

I cannot say if all of this still holds, and of course things have progressed further in both valleys in 18 more years. The point is that this sort of comment is perennial from people with experience of both. If you want to go further towards what the Napa Valley USED to look like, in the days when it was making its name, visit Anderson Valley extending, as detailed here recently, from northern Sonoma into southern Mendocino county (abundant references available on this newsgroup, archived on groups.google.com and elsewhere); or even more so, the Santa Cruz Mountains AVA in the southern Bay Area, where perhaps 40 of the wineries don't even have formal tasting facilities, but welcome interested visitors by appointment and on special public days. As it once was in the Napa Valley.

In any case enjoy the visit! -- Max

I agree with the person who said to make appointments. You will taste more and better wines, learn more, and receive better service. Also, as mentioned, many wineries will *only* taste by appointment. I usually make 2-3 appointments in a day (morning, lunch, afternoon) and then hit other wineries on the road between destinations. With some planning, you can make sure that the routes you take pass by some of the other wineries you might want to see. Many of the best experiences I have had were by appointment, although I've had some great experiences 'dropping in' to wineries as well. With an appointment you can usually avoid crowds and take a tour of the winery if you wish. You're also much more likely to be hosted by a person who knows the answers to your questions. The tasting room staff at some wineries is not too knowledgeable.

Dimitri

[SNIP]

Lawrence,

I understand your feelings, regarding Napa v Sonoma, as they seem to prevail in many travelers. I have to say, however, that my experiences have been just the opposite. Now, I will admit, that most of the tastings that I've done in Napa, have been by appointment, plus the, "hey look, that's a winery that we've never tried. Let's stop!" sort of mom-n-pop places. In Napa, I have never been charged a fee to taste, though most wineries display signs stating that there is a charge. In all cases, in Napa, they have declined to take my credit card, and waived the charges, whether I am buying anything, or not. Most of our tastings in Sonoma have involved US$5 - 25 tasting fees, depending on whether one is doing the "Reserve Tasting," or just the regular pours. In Napa, most of the staff usually wait until the room is nearly empty, then pull out "special" bottles, and usually whisper, "don't tell the winemaker, 'cause we're not supposed to be pouring this one!" Now, I'll admit that most of my Napa tastings are not the larger, "corporate" tasting rooms, but range from ultra-high-end, to small family operations. In Sonoma, there are four wineries, that we would never visit again, nor purchase their wine, because of their attitude. Most of my friends, claim that Sonoma is very laid-back, and Napa has the "attitude," but my experiences have been just the opposite.

OTOH, there are many, many other, wonderful AVA's that one can visit, when based in the SF area, and I'd recommend them all: Santa Cruz, Amador, Mendicino, and Anderson Valley. Even the Livermore area is worth the trip.

Hunt

Sorry, I did not mean to imply that you were new to the Napa/Sonoma tasting scene. I apologize, if I left that impression. I also heartily agree about the crowds, and eschew both Napa & Sonoma in the Summer, favoring "roads less traveled."

I've not done Nickel & Nickel, but have had comped tastings at both Schramsburg and Groth. Even Silver Oak comped the tasting, especially when I told them I already had a set of their glasses. Now, it could have been that I brought them a few bottles of Rombauer Chard, because I knew it was a favorite of the tasting room staff.

I have never

I can't comment on either Harlan, or Screaming Eagle, as I've never done those two. In my cases, though a tasting fee was posted, all offers to pay were rejected, and usually a few more wines were pulled out from behind the counter.

I have been

In Sonoma, we encountered charges for all tastings over the last several years. Few of these, with the exception of Ferrari-Carano, most were not mainstream.

In Anderson Valley and Mendocino I've

It appears that we have had totally different experiences within the same geography. I have nothing against the wines of Sonoma, and collect several, which I enjoy greatly. My statements were only meant to express my experiences with the wineries of these two nearby areas, especially since it is often stated that Napa is highly "commercialized," with ALL tastings costing a fortune. Perhaps I've been very fortunate, or maybe those making the reservations for some of the tastings have "greased the skids." I don't know. I have had many, many more pleasurable tasting episodes in Napa, than in Sonoma, regardless of the perception for it being laid back, and far less expensive to taste.

Hunt

in article snipped-for-privacy@news4.newsguy.com, Hunt at snipped-for-privacy@hunt.com wrote on

8/2/05 3:52 PM:

Not at all trying to pile on with this, but my own experience, over some 25 years or more, has been much more like Lawrence's. Of course, that long ago you could visit all the Sonoma tasting rooms in a day, and there weren't that many more in Napa.

But, specifically, we visited 5 or 6 in the Sonoma area a few weeks ago and were not charged at all but 1. The next day, in Napa, it was a mix of (I think) 3 charges and 2 not. While there are so many in both areas that any individual's experience could be somewhat random, my mental tally is certainly that charging is more universal in Napa. That is likely a factor of the larger crowds there, drawn by a larger concentration of wineries in a smaller area.

I do find, though, that most 'by appointment' wineries in Napa don't charge for tasting. We had a good experience at Bremer family (recommended here) and there was no charge.

In fairness, too, it sounds like you have a strong relationship at some wineries (bringing them wine?) so your experience would not likely be what the average 'tourist' would find. Certainly, as well, wineries will comp a 'good customer' in the same way they don't charge their club members for tasting.

Here, I think, you hit upon the key, Hunt. When I've gone tasting in the Napa Valley with people ITB, the two things I've noted are that they

*always* call ahead for appointments and they *usually* bring something to give to the staff. It's all about convincing the staff that you're not there to get "something for nothing" which they rightly find distasteful.

Mark Lipton

Oh, the pile gets heavier! :-} I do strongly agree that more Napa tasting rooms post a sign for charges, than is true in Sonoma - across that rather broad valley. OTOH, I find that there is much latitude in these "charges." Now, most of my tastings are in the Winter, when the fog is thick, and a cold drizzle falls. Hwy 29 is empty, except for an occasional ag-truck, of some kind. Calls are made, before I leave Phoenix, but I also try to stop by anything that I have NOT done, or the special wineries, where I've met, and spent time with the staff. The tour buses are absent, as are the throngs of folk on holiday - just me, and the staff. However, my Sonoma experiences were also the same times of the year, and, given my, and my wife's, experiences, we've always been greeted, like long lost cousins, who have just won the Powerball.

Now, on to Bremer Family, tell me (us) more. I'm not at all familiar with them. Though I'm in the SF environs about 5 times per year, I find that I can't keep up with all of the wineries. Though I try to get by about 5-6 new ones per visit, I always miss some. More info, please.

Hunt

>

Yes, I agree. Napa is very snobbish and you better stuff your wallet with $5 and $10 dollar bills to pay for tastings. For sure there are some great wines there, but the big wineries are not really there to cater to visitors and charge accordingly. One exception is V. Sattui who has free tasting and is in the business of selling wines at the winery exclusively. I bought a bottle of Zinfandel there that was fantastic. I also bought a bottle of Rose that was very sweet but good also. Some people here have posted some bad things about Sattui,but my experience there was great and would return. I think you would be better off spending your time in Sonoma and Russian River.

Joel

Another winery that I like is Franks Family Wine and they do not charge for tastings either. They also have some very nice Reds Wines. In fact I think outstanding red wines.

Another of the great free tastings in Napa is Heitz Cellars in St. Helena. They have never charged for tastings and they make very nice reds.

I agree that Sonoma and Russian River are nice but after returning from last week many of them now need the $5 tasting fees also...but waived if purchase is made.

Martinelli in Russian River area was outstanding.

Dick