Grosslage

"Mike Tommasi" schreef in bericht news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

Hi Mike

See the site van Jan van Houtert a Dutch wine label collector who knows quit a lot about all those lages see

Mail him if you want to know more, I'm sure he can tell you what you want to know

succes

Jenny

------------------------------------------------- Bonum Vinum Laetificat Cor!!!!

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Salut/Hi Mike Tommasi,

Simple questions sometimes lead to hugely complex answers. I'll simplify as best I can.

le/on Wed, 02 Mar 2005 09:32:05 +0100, tu disais/you said:-

I am not aware that Austria has adopted the Grosslage, I'd be surprised, since (IMO) it is a great mistake.

Grossalgen must - exactly like Einzellagen - mention the village. I can't remember if they must mention the Bereich, but they certainly do mention the region somewhere.

The problem facing German wine authorities back before '71 was that there were so many individual vineyards, that it was almost impossibly hard to know them all. At the same time, German wine law worked under the guiding principle that Oechsle was all (that's the OG - Original Gravity, measuring the sugar content of the must) and that the vineyard was relatively unimportant.

So, they created the Bereich, or region - which could be considered more or less the equivalent to a cote wine in Burgundy, and the Grosslage which was designed to be an appellation grouping vineyards of roughly equivalent quality which in its turn could be considered to be more or less equivalent to the Burgundian village, or Cru (thus Gevrey-Chambertin 1 cru, which doesn't specify the vineyard), because although the law didn't recognise different quality terroirs, the growers knew they existed and insisted on it

- especially the prestigious and powerful ones. ALL existing Einzellagen therefore became part of a new Grosslage system, which in turn was part of a Bereich. Therefore, a grower with holdings in - say - three Piesport vineyards, Domherr, Kreuzwingert and Grafenberg, (heard of any of these?) could market them under the name of Piesporter Michelsberg which is the Grosslage name covering Minheim, Piesport, Neumagen-Dhron, Trittenheim, Rivenich, Hetzerath and Selhem. (Heard of Michelsberg?). In this case, there was only one Grosslage, covering these villages.

However, as in Burgundy, growers with big enough holdings in Goldtropfchen continued to market their wines as Piesporter Goldtropfchen, (AOC Gevrey-Chambertin 1er Cru Clos St Jacques) while less well known (and possibly lesser quality) vineyards might well be marketed as Piesporter Michelsberg.

In nearby Bernkastel - making very varied wines - Grosslage Badstube covered just 5 of the most reputed vineyards, while Kurfürstlay, covers the others plus some other outlying villages including the best Brauneberg vineyards, so one could well imagine that a grower with holdings in Juffer, was hardly going to call his wine Brauneberger Kurfürstlay, which was also the large Grosslage in nearby Bernkastel.

Therefore theoretically, (as in Burgundy) one could get excellent wines under the Grosslage name, in practice it's rare. Could you imagine any Burgundian Grower marketing a Meursault 1er Cru, (cru unspecified) when s/he could market as Meursault Genevrières?

As for the Bereich, in the whole of the MSR, you have Bereich Zell (lower Mosel, the villages from Koblenz in the NE to Zell in the SW) Bereich Bernkastel, (Middle Mosel, from Briedel down to Kenn), Bereich Obermosel, (obermosel from Igel down to Perl) and finally Bereich Saar-Ruwer, for wines made near those two rivers. Call it the equivalent of the Cotes de Nuits (if this extended from Marsannay to Beaune) Cotes de Beaune (Pommard to the Montrachets) etc.

How this was supposed to simpify life for purchasers I'm not quite sure!!

I do sympathise. I‘ve never got truly to grips with the ‘new‘ (ie. 1971) German classification system whch took famous names and applied them to great areas of doubtful value. The old structure was more logical but, I believe, fell foul of the EEC. My understanding is that a Grosslage is the widest geographical sub-division or sub-classification of a Qualitatswein area or Anbaugebiete of which I think there are 11 containing about 150+ Grosslagen and many more — perhaps 2,600+ — Einzellagen, or individual vineyards which produce the great names.

I wondered if there was a Fench equivalent but there history still dominates and I can‘t think of anything like this — perhaps the nearest French parallel is the generic name of particular Appellation, entitled to the commune, village, broad AOC or Jurisdiction name but often a long way in quality from the great names within that broader grouping but its far from an exact comparison I think.

People - who are too idle to learn — complain about French AOC labels not having varietals on them but German Grosslage labels are confusing because they can lead people to believe that they have the wine of an individual vineyard or Einzellage of far greater merit but with the same name.

You ask > Are there any good Großlage wines?>

The magic words for a German label are, of course, QmP or Qualitatswein mit Pradikat which always helps me cut though the tangle a little. It‘s the old problem of teaching an old dog new tricks in my case.

Timothy Hartley

While not an exact analogy, think of Cotes du Rhone vs Cote Rotie, just as Guigal's Cotes du Rhone is a nice quaff but not as good as their basic, Brune et Blond, Cote Rotie, a JJ Prum or Maximum Grunhauser can make a decent Grosslage. I sort of recall Bernkastler wines being a step up from Moselblumchin and Liebraumilch which are QMP. I have a fat Huge Johnson Guide to German wines which lists all the grosslage and einsellager wines and I had Franz Reh wines for Maryland, I used it but German wines are like Burgundies in that the producer/importer is the key factor in a buying decision and not a particular site.

I hope this answer doesn't gross anyone out!!!

Thanks Ian and others, most useful. IOW if a Gr is a colelction of Einzellage, then they must necessariloy also be part of the same commune. There are no Grosslage that straddle several communes then. That makes things a bit easier to understand. OTherwise the permutations are almost infinite... ;-)

I do believe that Austria also has 35 Grosslage, to name the ones I have found (I seem to be missing two...), here they are below. Michael P., was meinst du? Are Grosslage in Austria a quality thing?

Südoststeiermark =============Oststeirisches Hügelland Vulkanland

Südsteiermark ========Sausal Südsteirisches Rebenland

Donauland =====Klosterneuburger Weinberge Tulbinger Kogel Wagram-Donauland

Kremstal ====Göttweiger Berg Kaiserstiege

Mittelburgenland =========Goldbachtal

Neusiedlersee =======Kaisergarten

Neusiedlersee-Hügelland ==============Rosaliakapelle Sonnenberg Vogelsang

Südburgenland ========Pinkatal Rechnitzer Geschriebenstein

Thermenregion ========Badener Berg Vöslauer Hauerberg Weißer Stein Tattendorfer Steinhölle (Stahölln) Schatzberg Kappellenweg

Traisental =====Traismaurer Weinberge

Wachau ====Frauenweingärten

Weinviertel ======Bisamberg-Kreuzenstein Falkensteiner Hügelland Matzner Hügel Retzer Weinberge Wolkersdorfer Hochleithen

Wien ==Bisamberg-Wien Georgenberg Kahlenberg Nußberg

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France email link

Irrelevant to your point really but FWIW this seems this does seem to happen!

On the cork of every "Jadot Beaune 1er Cru" bottle I have opened there has been the name of a Beaune 1er Cru vineyard. Different vinetards in different vintages. And the cork of every "Jodot Beaune" has said

Steve Slatcher wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

this is probably due to the cost of creating separate labels for vinyard specifics being imported into the US. they would have to receive approval for each even if the only difference is the name of the vinyard being displayed. Federal government doesn't care about croks evidentally.

"Mike Tommasi" skrev i melding news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

Ian was as always quite correct - but you have missed it a little bit :-) The Grosslage of Michelsberg straddles 7 village areas - namely Minheim, Piesport, Neumagen-Dhron, Trittenheim, Rivenich, Hetzerath and Sehlem. Rivenich and Hetzerath both are 3-4 miles away from the river and Sehlem off my map even does not have a recognized single vineyard, afaik, so any wine from that village is by default of Michelsberg. Now, would such a wine always be sold as 'Piesporter Michelsberg'? I don't see any regulation to that effect - so you could as well have a 'Trittenheimer Michelsberg' or a 'Rivenicher Michelsberg'! However, there is brand recognition, and so Piesport has become the standard village name. That's to the detriment of Piesport of course and a boon to the lesser growers of other villages. (IMHO, it would have been much better to forbid any village name with the Grosslage. So Michelsberg pure and simple might have been the best solution.)

Will a Grosslage wine be a poor one? Not necessarily - you may imagine a big and good producer blending his leftovers from several vineyards and selling it under the general name of a Grosslage. A top example: The Bernkasteler Badstube Riesling Eiswein 2003 from Markus Molitor at 91 points (would be 96 in WS :-) 35.80EUR for a half bottle, by the way.

hth Anders

They were actually bought in the UK, but that is not to say the US market was not influencing the labelling.

I presume that the reclassification was also, at least partly, because Jadot did not think they were worthy of the "higher" status and did not want to tarnish the Jadot brand. The named 1er Crus were Les Avaux and Les Marconnets BTW.

Salut/Hi Anders,

le/on Wed, 02 Mar 2005 20:42:29 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

Mike said

Not always ;-)) But thanks. This time I cheated, not over the basic facts, but with individual names and the relationships between exactly where Bereichs begin and end.

Indeed he did.

Exactly.

Hey, are you sure? I thought that a wine from a Trittenheim vineyard marketed under the Michelsberg grosslage name, HAD to be called Trittenheimer Michelsberg. Am I wrong here?

Quite right. Though compared with the general run of the mill of Grosslagen that's comparatively hard to find.

Salut/Hi Steve Slatcher,

le/on Wed, 02 Mar 2005 19:23:03 +0000, tu disais/you said:-

How can I reply without appearing to nit pick? The important point is that the name on the label is the name under which they are marketing the wine.

Whatever the corks say, they are making NO claims that the wine in the bottle is what is written on the cork - these were probably left over corks.

Many thanks, that might be the exception that gives rules a hard time (I cannot bring myself to say "proves")...

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France email link

I am aware of all that.. That's why I said "seems".

Before my last posting, I tried (but failed) to trace my source of communication, but I believe I once had an email from someone that had spoken to a Jadot representative who confirmed that the Beaune was indeed from 1er Cru vineyards

I have less evidence for the single vineyard 1er Crus.

I rather suspect that Jadot were simply selling the wine at the AC they thought the wine deserved whilst keeping some sort of straighforward audit route. They are a large enough company to want to protect their brand rather than make a fast buck shifting wine from underperforming vineyeards on the back of undesrved ACs

"Ian Hoare" skrev i melding news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

Hi again Yes, I am 99% sure you are. In fact, I have never seen any other name than Piesport associated with the Michelsberg though it includes 6 other villages... There's also the common perception that far more wine is sold under the Piesport name than is produced in Piesport proper... The German Wine Laws are quite obscure and I haven't been able to find iron-clad proof yet... Anders

Mike, there is a fundamental difference between a Großlage in Germany and in Austria. As others have said, the German Großlagen are indistinguishable from Einzellagen as they follow exactly the same naming scheme: village name plus vineyard name.

This "Betrug" has been discussed ad nauseam in German wine circles, e.g. in the "Weinforum" mailing list. There are those - like you, me, Hugh Johnson and just about the rest of the world except for the most bone-headed German négociants and cooperatives

- who believe it being the biggest mistake ever done in the German wine industry. And there are handfull of others, mostly in German trade and cooperative circles, possibly also supermarket chain buyers, who might find the concept logic and/or attractive.

Thus said, the Austrian concept of Großlagen somehow tried to copy the German way, but in fact it never really was used much. For some coincidence, today I wrote up an article about the Wagram part (Großlage "Wagram-Donauland") of Weinbaugebiet Donauland so I digged into the details and came up with the Großlagen-Verordnung. Here is the official text:

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Für die Weinbauflächen innerhalb der nachfolgend angeführten Weinbaugebiete werden folgende Großlagen festgesetzt:

1. Weinbaugebiet Burgenland:

a) Kaisergarten: politischer Bezirk Neusiedl am See;

b) Sonnenberg: politischer Bezirk Eisenstadt-Umgebung und Freistadt Eisenstadt;

c) Vogelsang: Freistadt Rust;

d) Rosalienkapelle: politischer Bezirk Mattersburg;

e) Goldbachtal: politischer Bezirk Oberpullendorf;

f) Rechnitzer Geschriebenstein: Gemeinden Rechnitz, Weiden bei Rechnitz, Markt Neuhodis und Stadt Schlaining;

g) Pinkatal: politische Bezirke Oberwart und Güssing mit Ausnahme der Gemeinden Rechnitz, Weiden bei Rechnitz, Markt Neuhodis und Stadt Schlaining.

1. Weinbaugebiet Niederösterreich:

a) Weißer Stein: Gemeinde Perchtoldsdorf;

b) Kapellenweg: Gemeinde Guntramsdorf;

c) Schatzberg: Gemeinde Gumpoldskirchen;

d) Tattendorfer Steinhölle (Stahölln): Gemeinden Pottendorf, Schönau an der Triesting, Blumau-Neurißhof, Tattendorf und Teesdorf;

e) Badener Berg: Gemeinden Baden, Sooß, Pfaffstätten, Traiskirchen, Günselsdorf, Trumau und Oberwaltersdorf;

f) Vöslauer Hauerberg: Gemeinden Bad Vöslau, Kottingbrunn und Leobersdorf sowie Gerichtsbezirke Pottenstein und Ebreichsdorf mit Ausnahme der Gemeinden Pottendorf, Trumau und Oberwaltersdorf;

g) Kaiserstiege: Gemeinden Rohrendorf bei Krems und Gedersdorf;

h) Göttweiger Berg: Gemeinden Furth bei Göttweig und Paudorf;

i) Frauenweingarten: in der Gemeinde Dürnstein die Katastralgemeinden Ober- und Unterloiben;

j) Traismaurer Weinberge: Stadt St. Pölten und Gemeinden Böheimkirchen, Sitzenberg-Reidling, Atzenbrugg, Würmla sowie Gerichtsbezirk Herzogenburg;

k) Klosterneuburger Weinberge: Gerichtsbezirk Klosterneuburg mit Ausnahme der Gemeinde Gerasdorf bei Wien;

l) Tulbinger Kogel: Gerichtsbezirk Tulln mit Ausnahme der Gemeinden Sitzenberg-Reidling, Atzenbrugg und Würmla;

m) Wagram-Donauland: Gerichtsbezirk Kirchberg am Wagram;

n) Bisamberg-Kreuzenstein: politischer Bezirk Korneuburg;

o) Matzner Hügel: Gerichtsbezirk Gänserndorf und Gemeinde Dürnkrut;

p) Wolkersdorfer Hochleiten: Gerichtsbezirk Wolkersdorf mit Ausnahme der Gemeinde Kreuzstetten;

q) Falkensteiner Hügelland: Gemeinde Kreuzstetten sowie Gerichtsbezirke Poysdorf, Mistelbach, Laa an der Thaya und Zistersdorf mit Ausnahme der Gemeinde Dürnkrut;

r) Retzer Weinberge: politische Bezirke Hollabrunn und Horn;

s) Pulkautal: Gemeinden Pulkau, Zellerndorf, Retz, Retzbach, Pernersdorf, Haugsdorf, Alberndorf im Pulkautal, Hadres, Seefeld-Kadolz, Mailberg, Guntersdorf und Wullersdorf.

1. Weinbaugebiet Südsteiermark:

a) Südsteirisches Rebenland: im politischen Bezirk Leibnitz die Gemeinden Arnfels, Berghausen, Ehrenhausen, Eichberg-Trautenburg, Gamlitz, Glanz, Großklein, Leutschach, Oberhaag, Ratsch an der Weinstraße, Retznei, St. Johann im Saggautal, Schloßberg, Seggauberg, Spielfeld, Sulztal an der Weinstraße, Wagna und von der Gemeinde Heimschuh die Weinbauflächen rechts der Sulm;

b) Sausal: im politischen Bezirk Leibnitz die Gemeinden Gleinstätten, Kaindorf an der Sulm, Kitzeck im Sausal, Lang, Leibnitz, Lebring-St. Margarethen, Pistorf, St. Andrä-Höch, St. Nikolai im Sausal, Tillmitsch, Weitendorf, Wildon und von der Gemeinde Heimschuh die Weinbauflächen links der Sulm.

1. Weinbaugebiet Süd-Oststeiermark:

a) Steirisches Vulkanland: politische Bezirke Radkersburg und Feldbach;

b) Oststeirisches Hügelland: politische Bezirke Fürstenfeld, Hartberg und Weiz sowie die Weinbauflächen der politischen Bezirke Leibnitz und Graz-Umgebung links der Mur.

1. Weinbaugebiet Wien:

a) Bisamberg-Wien: Katastralgemeinden Strebersdorf, Stammersdorf und Groß-Jedlersdorf;

b) Kahlenberg: Katastralgemeinden Kahlenbergerdorf und Josefsdorf;

c) Nußberg: Katastralgemeinden Nußdorf und Heiligenstadt; d) Georgenberg: Katastralgemeinden Mauer, Kalksburg und Rodaun.

----------------- end citation -----------------

If I got my count right, there are 34 Großlagen. But they are in absolutely no way homogenous. There is one Großlage, "Frauenweingärten" (2e) that is even smaller than the commune it is situated in (Dürnstein), there is one, Traismaurer Weinberge (2j) that covers one whole Weinbaugebiet (Traisental) plus 3 communes of neighbouring Donauland. Only 10 of the 34 are possibly misunderstandably in the sense that their name looks like an Einzellage: 1f, 2b, 2b, 2f, 2h, 2l, 2p, 5b, 5c, 5d. Something like "Hügelland" (hilly land) or "Weinberge" (vineyards) doesn't sound like a singly vineyard site.

Then there are quite a few Großlagen that bear (single) vineyard site names but without the name of the village, which normally prevents them of being confounded with real single vineyard sites, because in the latter case the commune has to be stated on the label. There are other curiosities as there are 2 Großlagen totally identical with Weinbaugebiete: 1a, Kaisergarten, is Weinbaugebiet Neusiedlersee. 1e, Goldbachtal, is identical to Mittelburgenland.

This seems to me totally uncoordinated (and it probably is), but Großlagen are quite rarely seen on Austrian wine labels, they play no role in the practical marketing of Austrian wines. The only one I remember having seen "in freier Wildbahn" (i.e. in real life) is a bottle or two of "Kaiserstiege" from some obscure producer.

HTH a little,

M.

Merci beaucoup.

Between the thousands of obscure Grosslage, Einzellage, Rieden, Fluren, Bereiche, Ortsteile and whatever it seems the Germans and in a lesser way the Austrians have come up with a complex classification that rivals the French and Italian systems with their mix of quality and garbage appellations and denominations. All this must indeed make australians laugh all the way to the bank...

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France email link

De rien.

Well, most of the top Austrian reds carry a phantasy name ("Das Phantom", "Admiral", "Elegy", "Pannobile", "G") or what is or used used to be a vineyard name ("Marienthal", "Salzberg") but today has turned into the grower's brand name. The same holds true for all top whites except for dry riesling, grüner veltliner (Wachau & surroundings), and sauvignon blanc (Styria). These usually come vineyard designated.

So it's not *that* complicated, after all.

M.

Alexis Lichine gave a then complete table of the German wine classification in his New Encyclopedia of Wine and Spirits, 3rd. ed. in Appendix B. There may have been some changes since this was published. At the first level we start with Anbaugebiet(region) of which there are

As an example we can start with the Anbaugebiet Mosel-Saar-Ruwer. Under this we can find the Bereich Bernkastel. Under this we can find several Grosslagen. One Grosslage is Badstube. Under this there is only one Weinbauort(village) called Bernkastel-Kues. Within this there are 5 Einzellage(vineyards including Doctor and Graben. However the Bereich Berncastel has another Grosslage called Kurfurstlay. Under this are eleven Weinbauort(village) names, one of which is Bernkastel-Kues also, which has 6 Einzellage(vineyard) names such as Rosenberg and Schlossberg. Thus if you bought a Badstube Grosslage wine, you would have a mixture of wines from 5 of the very top Bernkastel vineyards. However if you bought a Grosslage Kurfurstlay wine, it could be associated with any of 11 villages, each having several vineyards. I choose one of the most extreme examples of the complexity of the German wine classification. The aim of all of this mess of classification in the Bernkastel area likely is to allow many less well known wines that may even be fairly far from Bernkastel to take advantage o the Bernkastel name in some way. Things are not nearly as complex in some of the areas of Germany that do not have world-famous wines.

Reply to snipped-for-privacy@cwdjr.net .

I agree, Michael. In my purchases of Austrian wines here (and to a lesser extent in Austria) I have never been confused by a label. Once one learns the meaning of a few regional terms (Smaragd, e.g.) it becomes quite easy for even an American to make out what is in the bottle, quite unlike the labyrinth that often is presented by German wines (AP numbers, indeed!)

Mark Lipton