Michael Prónay: Veltliner pronunciation?

Max Hauser wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com:

Hello Max! I am not Michael, but as an Austrian living in Vienna for a couple of years I may provide some qualified input:

All I hear all the time is Veltliner with emphasis on the second syllable - English phonetic spelling: Felt-LEE-ner. The emphasis is not too strong but it is definitly not on the first syllable. I would definitely pronounce it like that.

Maybe things have changed from 20 years ago - I have been living here in Vienna only for the last 16 years :-).

Regards, Robert

Robert is correct in his emphasis.

Ron Lel

"Ron Lel" in news:6i%ke.881$ snipped-for-privacy@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

Ron, your helpful impulse is positive, but that particular posting illustrates what I was striving to avoid: Arguments by conviction. If you conclude that "Robert is correct in his emphasis," could you at some point share the basis from which you got that opinion. This is helpful for others, and also to make your own point.

I still seek comment from Austria (especially from M. P. who is a recognized authority and may have wide perspective) on this issue. As I mentioned, I've heard "VELTliner" around Vienna, again the emphasis was mild. Starting years ago, and most recently when visiting in late 1993 with restaurant itinerary as summarized below which received some further circulation, and a small item used by Kn*ght-R*dder related to a special election at the same time, where I live back in California, involving a Styrian-born actor as successful candidate for state governor. (At the time, that topic was so popular in Vienna, it was scarcely possible to pay for one's own "eighth" of GV in a restaurant if it became known that one was from California, and EVERYone wanted to share their opinions on the matter.)

-- Porterhouse (not for steaks, for wild mushrooms then in season); Gösser Bierklinik (open-faced sandwiches by the square meter); Trézniewski's take-out of course; Entler; Fratelli; Bohème; Schwartzen Kameel; Café Diglas; Immervoll (recent popular fresh lively place, Wiener-Küche classics plus new things, we got clear soup w/Griessnockerl, Rinsdgulasch "klein," Kürbis-raviol w/ brown-butter sauce, "Moor in Hemd," even some yellow-plum moonshine "Kricherl" from under the counter; Luftberg @ Prater;

That was late 2003 of course, sorry for the error.

Sorry, I am late (have been really busy). It's veltLINer.

M.

Never heard that. Possibly the same people that pronounce "barrique" on the first sillable? (One can hear that quite commonly in the Burgenland, but it's wrong, of course).

M.

"Michael Pronay" in news: snipped-for-privacy@pronay.com... | "Max Hauser" wrote: | | | As I mentioned, I've heard "VELTliner" around | | Vienna, again the emphasis was mild. | | Never heard that. Possibly the same people that pronounce | "barrique" on the first sillable? (One can hear that quite | commonly in the Burgenland, but it's wrong, of course). |

OK, thanks, and also to all other respondents. I stand fully corrected and will proceed accordingly. (Either my memory failed -- not for the first time! -- or I was listening to eccentrics. Also not for the first time.)

Cheers -- Max

Etymology: the word may come from "Valtellina". Which would make the pronunciation confirmed by Michael quite close to the pronunciation of this other wine word...

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France email link

Mi e' parso che Michael Pronay abbia scritto:

A winemaker from Liechtenstein, who works in Italy in his Buranco estate and who also Mike T. has met with us in october, used to say "cabernet sauvignon" with the stress on the "caub" and "sauv" syllabes. Is that correct or just a mispelling due to his origins? I always thought the stress should fall on the final syllabe of both words.

"Vilco" wrote in news:JDGle.29589$795.907406 @twister1.libero.it:

I shall be corrected if wrong, but french tends not to accent any syllables at least not to the extent of other languages, the flow is the important thing.

But then again, even on some wine lists in Alsace they struggle with it: occasionally you even find the spelling "Gewurstraminer"...as if the stuff was meant to accompany sausages!

Yves T

The French language accents the last syllable of every word, without exception. I believe the same is true for Hebrew and Japanese.

Hey Vilco, we are spending a day with Kurt and Sonja of Buranco next weekend... !!!

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France email link

It is ;-)

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France email link

I can't say what French or Hebrew do, but that's certainly not true of Japanese. Japanese words are spoken very evenly, with little or no extra stress put on any syllable. To a speaker of English, that usually makes it sound like the stress is on the first syllable.

"Ken Blake" in news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com... | In news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com, | Mike Tommasi typed: | | | .., French language accents the last syllable of every word, | | without exception. I believe the same is true for Hebrew | | and Japanese. |

Exceptions can sometimes be heard when Parisian drivers indulge their tradition of self-expression at other drivers, often with feeling.

"IMbecile! Espèce de coCHON!"

The stress moves around with poetic license.

] "Ken Blake" in news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com... ] | In news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com, ] | Mike Tommasi typed: ] | ] | | .., French language accents the last syllable of every word, ] | | without exception. I believe the same is true for Hebrew ] | | and Japanese. ] | ] ] Exceptions can sometimes be heard when Parisian drivers indulge their ] tradition of self-expression at other drivers, often with feeling. ] ] "IMbecile! Espèce de coCHON!" ] ] The stress moves around with poetic license. ] ]

Very true. I think there is wide regional variation, what Mike says may be true in the midi (where he lives): "rose", properly a 2 syllable word in French, is pronounced ros-UH. But in much of France the second syllable is silent, therefore the emphasis is defacto on the first syllable... ;) The same may be said of "une" also: that's oon-UH ros-UH for our southern friend. (Don't know if "une" has two syllables properly speaking).

-E

Thinking about this, I've heard native Burgundians pronounce the name of the city DI-jon, with a clear stress on the first syllable.

You have been spending too much time south... ;-)

"Rose" is a single syllable when at the end of a phrase or just before a word starting with a vowel. The final e is "caduque"...

But poetic rules (not licence...) might make rose into a two syllable word. And as you know, we speak like poets here in the south...

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France email link

] On Fri, 27 May 2005 20:05:50 +0200, Emery Davis ] wrote: ] [] ] >

] >Very true. I think there is wide regional variation, what Mike says ] >may be true in the midi (where he lives): "rose", properly a 2 syllable ] >word in French, is pronounced ros-UH. But in much of France the ] >second syllable is silent, therefore the emphasis is defacto on the ] >first syllable... ;) The same may be said of "une" also: that's ] >oon-UH ros-UH for our southern friend. (Don't know if "une" ] ] You have been spending too much time south... ;-) ] ] "Rose" is a single syllable when at the end of a phrase or just before ] a word starting with a vowel. The final e is "caduque"... ] ] But poetic rules (not licence...) might make rose into a two syllable ] word. And as you know, we speak like poets here in the south... ]

Indeed you are: I learned to curse in Marseille. :)

I have (oddly enough) had this discussion with a room full of native types, everyone agrees that there is a second "syllabe caduque", as you point out. I have never heard tell of the rule, but I just looked it up, and PR has it as 1 syllable! So maybe I've been wrong all these years.

Then again I asked my 7 year old daughter, she clapped hands along with "ros-UH," looked at me like I was an idiot, and said "it's two, we learned that with Maitresse last year."

-E