Rant re wine in ethnic restaurants

Isn't the main problem that the Chinese do not drink wine with their food, nothing, water or tea are most usual in my experience. I like to drink beer with Chinese food myself tho' I have enjoyed dryish whites but I prefer to eat Chinese food family style, as do Chinese people I believe, and chosing one wine for a vast range of dishes is difficult.

I'm totally with you, Dale. It wouldn't take much to offer just a single bottle that matches better! There are quite a few Chinese restaurants in San Francisco that "get it", and if you're ever in the LA area, go to Yujean Kang's in Pasadena. e.

When dining in Chinese restaurants, I've enjoyed absent a wine list, a couple of bottles of warmed sake.

After my first experience, I found out why most Asians sit close to the floor!

Mark E Sievert

in article snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com, James Silverton at snipped-for-privacy@erols.com wrote on 4/20/05 2:12 PM:

During the many years I traveled to Taiwan on business I found that there is a great deal of alcohol consumed with meals, especially (unless things have changed lately) by males out to dinner. I've been toasted under the table (literally), more times than I count, with rice wine, Scotch and brandy, and of course, beer. Wine (mostly German, French and American) was beginning to appear (this was as of 5 years ago), but not with much imagination in it's selection. More recently, I've been told, better wines are beginning to be used as personal and business gifts, and stats I've seen suggest that wine consumption is rising rapidly all over Asia.

The lack of a good selection at a restaurant like Shun Lee is curious in that they have been around for so long, and at such an up-scale level, that one would think they'd have a decent wine list if their clientele was requesting it. I'd be inclined to agree that the menu of mixed Chinese cuisines adds to the difficulty of choice, and also think it's likely that wine isn't thought of as traditional with what most people likely consider a traditional ethnic food experience.

I'd really be interested in the opinions of any Asians here on this, as well as anyone who visits Asia a lot.

My perspective?

Dale! You were in a Chinese restaurant. Wine is not part of Chinese cuisine. You might as well expect McDonald's to serve Zinfandel with Big Macs.

In three or four trips (I lost count) to Hong Kong, I had wine once - among which was an '82 Latour - but we went to a mostly-French restaurant in Quarry Bay. In two trips to PRC (People's Republic of China), I had wine once, and it was some kind of local thing that was less than remarkable.

I had Chinese food every day, two to three times. That's a lot of Chinese food. The one time I had wine with it, it was a curiosity to everyone involved.

Real Chinese food isn't served with wine.

You're expecting too much for them to have a high-zoot wine list at a Chinese restaurant. They'll have high-zoot Chinese food and wine just isn't part of it.

If you wish, call ahead, discuss the menu with the staff, and arrange to bring your wine. Perhaps you'll educate them.

But don't criticize a good Chinese restaurant for serving good, authentic Chinese food.

Dana

As a lover of wine (politically correct term for alcoholic), I sympathise with you. If however, we turn the tables and imagine a tea connoisseur dining in a modern French restaurant could we reasonable expect them to have even a suggestion of a good selection of tea? I've rarely seen more than classic 'European' tea blends and/or poor green tea imitators. Where are the delicious teas the likes of: 'kung fu', 'iron Buddha', 'Buddha's tears', quality estates and flushes of Darjeeling, Assam, Ceylon... the list goes on?

Many restaurants cross boundaries, others stick more to what they do best. Pick and choose accordingly - or bring your own.

Personally, I'd like to see more alcohol-free cocktails (mocktails), iced teas (not the nasty mass produced 'stuff') and leaf teas available in restaurants everywhere. It offers a real choice to those working, driving, or simply choosing not to drink a choice other than nasty cola/soda products, reconstituted fruit juice and water.

Kind regards, Adrian

And those non-expectations have rarely been unmet - correct, Dale? ;^)

Sounds OK to me. As long as there's always _good_ Chardonnay available the restaurant can vary the other selections considerably AFAIC. If something sounds interesting I'll often order it instead of my "default".

Rant noted. :^[

Tom S

So you went to a Chinese restaurant with a bad wine list. Why are you extending this to all "wine in ethnic restaurants"?

Dimitri

Interesting Dale, I think you need to emigrate. There are some Chinese restaurants here, (Melbourne), that have excellent wine lists - in the last couple of weeks I have even seen one that has an 8 page wine list with headings such as "aromatics" featuring a number of Alsacian Gewurztraminers, German rieslings and NZ and Aussie Sav Blancs. So it can certainly be done if the owner has an interest in pairing wine and food. Some even have banquets and match wines by the glass to each course, including decent Burgundies with the duck course.

Ron Lel

Even in the relatively low rent "family-ish" Chinese places I've been in, you know, nice reliable food, nothing spectacular, cheesy Chinese decor, five waiters hand feeding you etc. they've had reasonable wine lists. Usually at least something like a reliable semillion.

Or BYO. BYO is normally a prerequisite for me when going to a restaurant. The benefits of BYO are obvious.

"Real Chinese food"

But Dana, when I want real Chinese food I pick a REAL Chinese restaurant. You've never heard a peep from me when I've gone to Oriental Garden (Cantonese), Grand Sichuan (Szechuan), Jing Fong (Shanghai-style dim sum) or the Chiu Chow place on Mott whose name I can't remember.

Shun Lee is a REAL Chinese-American restaurant, though well-done. Even the Szechuan dishes are mild enough for wine. The service is European-American. If most of the customers are drinking wine, one would think the (otherwise savvy) management would put a little care into choosing the list. Everything else is done with care (this is a place with $25-35 main courses, $8 wonton soup, and our side of green beans was $13- I wasn't paying!).

] DaleW wrote: []] > But when one goes to a place that (1) aims for more upper-end dining & ] > (2) doesn't have wine-hostile cuisine, it seems to be some care could ] > be put into wine choices. I'm not expecting most upper-end Chinese ] > places to have a Henry's Evergreen style sensibility, but one would ] > think SOME thought would be put into list. ][] ] My perspective? ] ] Dale! You were in a Chinese restaurant. Wine is not part of Chinese ] cuisine. You might as well expect McDonald's to serve Zinfandel with ] Big Macs. ] []

But Dana, in France McDo _does_ serve wine (or beer of course) with the Big Macs. (What wine, I wonder?) They do because the client wants it. One might make a similar argument for Dale's joint -- or say that there is no list simply because the clients don't ask for one often enough.

I can certainly think of a "gastronomique" chinese place in Paris with a decent wine list. And most asian restaurants there will at least have a Tavel, and something from Alsace on the list. (Most is probably an exaggeration, all hole-in-the-walls included.)

-E

"So you went to a Chinese restaurant with a bad wine list. Why are you extending this to all "wine in ethnic restaurants"? "

Uh, can you show me where I extended it to all wine in ethnic restaurants (other than in title- I'll do a disclaimer that ALL my thread titles are by neccesity abbreviated)? Let's see, I specified high-end restaurants with wine-friendly cuisine. . I mentioned Henry's Evergreen , as an example of a place with an extraordinary list (I could have used places Slanted Door, Tabla, or Cinnabar as other examples).

I just think in a place where much care (and big bucks) are spent on decor and waiters' outfits, with attentive European -style service, etc. and where the majority of patrons are ordering wine, that someone could do 15 minutes reading to see if there is a consensus of what wines might match with their food.

Ron,

there are exceptions. Unfortunately, the most notable in NYC, Henry's Evergreen, recently closed - Henry Leung moved to Napa (or was it Sonoma?). Henry had a passion for matching wine with Chinese food. I think he's planning on opening a CA restaurant, I'd strongly advise anyone in area to give it a try.

Most of the Chinese places with good lists in NYC seem to be more fusion-oriented. A place called Cinnabar had a Gruner, an Alsace Riesling,and a Rheingau Riesling on their btg list.

Best to you and your wife. We're getting to your side of the Pacific next month, but only to Japan. Cheers!

I like Shun Lee and I agree with you, we just order beer there. On the other end of the spectrum, we dined at Jasmine in the Bellagio (Las Vegas) last year. They definitely had a high end wine list, we ended up with a nice Duckhorn SB that matched the food nicely. Looking at the wine list, we wondered aloud who on earth would order the top growth Bordeaux on their list to accompany this delicate food. Then a pair of Japanese businessmen sat down next to us, ordered a $250 bottle and proceeded to drink it like water. So go figure.

GS.

"we dined at Jasmine in the Bellagio (Las Vegas) last year. They definitely had a high end wine list, we ended up with a nice Duckhorn SB that matched the food nicely. Looking at the wine list, we wondered aloud who on earth would order the top growth Bordeaux on their list to accompany this delicate food. Then a pair of Japanese businessmen sat down next to us, ordered a $250 bottle and proceeded to drink it like water."

I've heard horror stories re Chinese businessmen mixing mature Leoville Las Cases with Coca-Cola. I agree with you, but note that Henry Leung , who I referenced above, made a very successful business by matching Chinese dishes with wine, especially big Cabs!

And in addition to my off-dry Riesling with seafood in bean sauce example, I'll happily eat Peking Duck and good riper Burgundy/Pinot any day! :)

I remember getting Opus One in a Chinese restaurant - not my choice BTW, and though I didn't say it at the time in deference to my host, woefully overpriced even before the mark-up. This was in the Westin in Macau.

Here in the UK beer tends to be the drink - lager mainly. Personally if not drinking alcohol the alternative would be a pot of green tea. However, even the local neighbourhood restaurants have a few wines, usually a run of the mill Chardonnay and SB.

Since I'm the sort of person who can quite happily while away the time between courses picking the birds-eye chili out of the soy sauce with my chopsticks, wine is rarely an option.

James James Dempster (remove nospam to reply by email)

You know you've had a good night when you wake up and someone's outlining you in chalk.

Well, I was assuming it from the title of the thread: "Wine in ethnic restaurants". What exactly are you abbreviating?

Maybe, but it's just one restaurant. Don't go back there if it displeases you. I've been to plenty of ethnic restaurants (even Chinese) with good wine lists.

Dimitri

I have eaten at The Slanted Door in San Francisco but that is basically Vietnamese, IMHO, and I have found that something like a Sancerre works with that type of cuisine. I have never been to China but, as I mentioned, at a Chinese restaurant I usually eat family style which I understand is the Chinese custom. For example. see

A comment there on liquids might tend to explain why I would not expect much of a wine list even if some good wine lists do exist. To quote: "First, instead of one main course, there are several entrees. Furthermore, all the dishes are served at once - including the soup, which is considered a beverage, and is often the only liquid served with a meal. (While the Chinese are notorious tea aficionados, most prefer to drink it after the meal, taking advantage of its ability to aid in digestion). Generally, with the exception of rice, the dishes are served in the middle of the table, with everyone helping themselves from the same dish. "

How you can expect to choose one wine to match all the flavors is beyond me especially since the basic taste sensations of "sour, sweet, salty, bitter, and piquant" are supposed to be balanced in a proper Chinese meal.