Of course, a wine program can be worth a lot of revenue to a restaurant, so they may consider it. On the other hand, even a moderately-sized cellar can represent a fair bit of investment - it is possible that the restaurant isn't equipped to properly store wine. If the wine isn't turning over at a fair rate, it could be a money-loser for the establishment.
So, why not call in advance and discuss the menu/wine list. and arrange to bring your own? Maybe you'll pleasantly surprise the staff.
Actually, my guess is that Shun Lee carries some serious wine already - my "rant" was about the btg list. I do follow your plan if I'm planning the dinner. This however was Charles' treat and choice. They certainly carry Veuve Cliquot, which was the only bottle I saw on a nearby table.
Concerns about inventory cost and storage might indeed be an issue for a small place. But this is a huge established restaurant (which runs quarter-page ads in the NYTimes). With most patrons consuming wine, I don't think turnover is a big issue.
The thing that bothered me wasn't the quality of the wine. It was that in a moderately expensive restaurant where much attention is paid to detail (your napkin is folded if you go to restroom, blah blah blah) , zero attention had been paid to the btg list. I wouldn't have mentioned it if there was a Riesling (even a Valckenberg QbA), any Gruner, any Gewurz, etc. But the choices were obviously stock choices( "these are our recommended high-profit whites" from the distributor almost certainly) put in without any thought. I can't imagine there's any other areas of their business that they pay so little attention to (yet make substantial income from).
By-the-glass is special in the sense that they need to basically recover the cost of the bottle on one glass. Wine is not traditionally consumed with Chinese food - so they're likely to toss 3/4 of every bottle they open. That's break-even at best.
Next time you're there, buy the manager a drink and talk to him, ask him about this. Certainly, the successful restaurant people I know pride themselves on being able to offer a by-the-glass program worth talking about, but they also are really limited in what they can do by market realities. By-the-glass doesn't work with a clientele that doesn't frequently buy wine with the food.
I'd have to agree with that. Maybe it's the proximity of Napa and Sonoma, but I remember most restaurants I'd go to (be it Indian, Chinese, Thai, etc) there would be a decent selection of wines to go with the menu. Not 20+ by the glass, but definitely enough to get us by. However, often the better choices were bottle only, although that was never really a problem.
Only one I remember without this was an Ethiopian restaurant in the Haight. The food was so good, though, I'd never have gotten past a glass.
Nope. I've had this account for years, but I primarily use the AOL account for wine/food related stuff. With broadband AOL actually has a few advantages.
"By-the-glass doesn't work with a clientele that doesn't frequently buy wine with the food. "
True, but Dana that doesn't apply here. This is a huge restaurant (probably seats 150+) that was 80% filled on a Tuesday at 6 PM. As I stated, almost every table had winedrinkers (and one bottle of Veuve Cliquot was the only full bottle). Between lunch (prime btg time in NY) and dinner I would bet they sell an absolute minimum of 75 glasses a day. Even a non-mainstream choice would almost certainly sell 3-4 glasses per day, if one was being really careful and dumping remainder at end of day, they still would make good money (figure paying $8 a bottle for a QbA, sell 4 glasses at $8, dump two- $24 gross profit).
Interesting. I've never really looked at 'about.com' before. Some of the articles may be good, but much of the information in the Chinese food article linked above is grossly overgeneralized, as well as being just plain wrong. To be fair, I suspect such errors are almost unavoidable when one attempts to cover such a broad topic in so few words.
I don't recognize the author's name, so don't know what her background or authority is, but I would note that she's not Chinese. Then again, neither am I, so she should start with as much or more credibility than I have!
(Okay, I poked around a little. She has written a Chinese cookbook and food articles for about.com. The Chinese cookbook is called _The Everything Chinese Cookbook_. She has also written _The Everything Fondue Cookbook_ and _The Everything College Cookbook_. Draw your own conclusions, but I guarantee you I won't be buying the _Everything Wine Guide_ should she choose to write one!)
A few simple problems...
(1) Just plain damn wrong that tea is ordinarily saved until after a meal in China. Just this past Wednesday, two Chinese friends and I had very little time for lunch and were forced to go to the food court in the bottom of my office building in Beijing. Each of them made a point of buying something to drink with their meals and told me it was strange that I would eat without having something to drink. I had fifteen meals this week with various Chinese friends and that one meal was the only meal that did not see a pot of tea on the table throughout the meal.
(2) While I appreciate the author's point that meat and seafood play a small supporting role next to vegetable and starch, she should know better than to identify rice as a national starch. The simple fact is that in many parts of China the dominant starch is wheat-based. Wheat-based staple starches range from noodles to pancakes to seasoned buns to dumplings.
(3) Sampling just a very few of her recipes, one can see such ingredients as: dried cilantro, garlic salt, "Swanson's" chicken soup, olive oil, dry white wine. Also, a fair proportion of the recipes she calls "Chinese" are, in fact, Thai.
I apologize for ranting about a Chinese food page in a wine group, but this is a prime example of the worst sort of garbage information that exists all over the web and misleads so many people!
Now, on to a very good problem posed by Mr. Silverton:
I agree that it is quite difficult, particular when one eats family style. However, I generally find that each regional cuisine has a characteristic array of flavors that can be a guide. Also, one dish will often occupy a featured place and can anchor the pairing. An example is Dale's Beijing duck with red burg.
An example of the characterstic array of flavor: Authentic Szechuan cuisine is usually going to have at least one dish featuring a meat/fish cooked and presented submerged in an oil heavily spiced by chili (with the peppers still present in great number when the dish reaches the table). Other dishes will balance that dish (and sometimes the chili dish will be absent, but then there will usually be a similar dish where the chili is replaced by Szechuan peppercorn).
If one chooses a wine to stand up to the centerpiece, it will work fairly well. Truth is, no wine will stand up directly, but some will survive the residual heat and provide pleasure with the other dishes. If it is the chili version, I find that nothing works as well as Alsatian riesling, particularly a VT that has retained good acid as well. The trifecta of alchoholic body, residual sugar, and acid seem to do the trick. If it is the Szechuan pepper version, I've found good GruVe with adequate body to match best.
So, no, it's not easy to match wine, but it can be done. With Cantonese, Shanghai, Teo Chiu, Hokkien, Beijing, other Eastern cuisines, I find it can be done pretty easily. With things like the aforementioned Szechuan or similarly aggressive cuisines, I generally think beer is best. In fact, I usually stick to beer even with the easier-to-match Eastern cuisines. But, as with the examples above, even Szechuan can be matched.
If, however, I'm in a place that serves "Chinese" food but is not terribly authentic -- one that seems to cater to westerners in terms of portion size, service style, etc., and has no discernable regional identity -- I might look toward wine. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for decent by-the-glass selections in this type of place, particularly if the restaurant charges a relatively "high end" price for food/service and has a bottle list with higher end choices.
When one gives up one's authenticity in exchange for $$$, that's fine, but one also gives up one's right to hide behind the cloak of authenticity and takes on new burdens. One of those burdens is to provide beverage choices that complement and are consistent with ones pricing, food, and service. "Selling out" is fine, even an admirable spur to creativity in many cases, but one must then deliver on the sale.
Rant mode off.
Pleasure mode on...a few highlights of the week:
-- Goose intestines in hot chili oil (the first of the Szechuan preparations described above) -- at lunch so with (jasmine) tea
-- Fresh, local frog in Szechuan pepper oil (the second of the Szechuan preparations described above) -- with local Beijing beer
-- Awesome local duck breast, broiled in a super hot, wood-fired oven so that skin was crisp and meat was medium rare, served with thin sesame buns and a Szechuan pepper/salt dip -- in a new style restaurant with a pretty good wine list -- wanted wine, but this was lunch and there was a very long afternoon ahead
-- Jellyfish marinated in garlic and Zhejiang black vinegar, which provided the perfect balancing foil to the rich unctuousness of Beijing duck -- with (Chinese green) tea
It seems that every time I am in Beijing, I eat more Szechuan food that anything else. Szechuan is the most popular cuisine in Northern China and can be found on just about every other corner, in restaurants ranging from very high end to very cheap and from regionally authentic to a pan-China melange.
Take care,
Jim (back in Tokyo -- sure to miss good Chinese food until my next trip, but looking forward to tonight and a bottle of wine with some food to match)
Interesting. I've never really looked at 'about.com' before. Some of the articles may be good, but much of the information in the Chinese food article linked above is grossly overgeneralized, as well as being just plain wrong. To be fair, I suspect such errors are almost unavoidable when one attempts to cover such a broad topic in so few words.
I don't recognize the author's name, so don't know what her background or authority is, but I would note that she's not Chinese. Then again, neither am I, so she should start with as much or more credibility than I have!
(Okay, I poked around a little. She has written a Chinese cookbook and food articles for about.com. The Chinese cookbook is called _The Everything Chinese Cookbook_. She has also written _The Everything Fondue Cookbook_ and _The Everything College Cookbook_. Draw your own conclusions, but I guarantee you I won't be buying the _Everything Wine Guide_ should she choose to write one!)
A few simple problems...
(1) Just plain damn wrong that tea is ordinarily saved until after a meal in China. Just this past Wednesday, two Chinese friends and I had very little time for lunch and were forced to go to the food court in the bottom of my office building in Beijing. Each of them made a point of buying something to drink with their meals and told me it was strange that I would eat without having something to drink. I had fifteen meals this week with various Chinese friends and that one meal was the only meal that did not see a pot of tea on the table throughout the meal.
(2) While I appreciate the author's point that meat and seafood play a small supporting role next to vegetable and starch, she should know better than to identify rice as a national starch. The simple fact is that in many parts of China the dominant starch is wheat-based. Wheat-based staple starches range from noodles to pancakes to seasoned buns to dumplings.
(3) Sampling just a very few of her recipes, one can see such ingredients as: dried cilantro, garlic salt, "Swanson's" chicken soup, olive oil, dry white wine. Also, a fair proportion of the recipes she calls "Chinese" are, in fact, Thai.
I apologize for ranting about a Chinese food page in a wine group, but this is a prime example of the worst sort of garbage information that exists all over the web and misleads so many people!
Now, on to a very good problem posed by Mr. Silverton:
I agree that it is quite difficult, particular when one eats family style. However, I generally find that each regional cuisine has a characteristic array of flavors that can be a guide. Also, one dish will often occupy a featured place and can anchor the pairing. An example is Dale's Beijing duck with red burg.
An example of the characterstic array of flavor: Authentic Szechuan cuisine is usually going to have at least one dish featuring a meat/fish cooked and presented submerged in an oil heavily spiced by chili (with the peppers still present in great number when the dish reaches the table). Other dishes will balance that dish (and sometimes the chili dish will be absent, but then there will usually be a similar dish where the chili is replaced by Szechuan peppercorn).
If one chooses a wine to stand up to the centerpiece, it will work fairly well. Truth is, no wine will stand up directly, but some will survive the residual heat and provide pleasure with the other dishes. If it is the chili version, I find that nothing works as well as Alsatian riesling, particularly a VT that has retained good acid as well. The trifecta of alchoholic body, residual sugar, and acid seem to do the trick. If it is the Szechuan pepper version, I've found good GruVe with adequate body to match best.
So, no, it's not easy to match wine, but it can be done. With Cantonese, Shanghai, Teo Chiu, Hokkien, Beijing, other Eastern cuisines, I find it can be done pretty easily. With things like the aforementioned Szechuan or similarly aggressive cuisines, I generally think beer is best. In fact, I usually stick to beer even with the easier-to-match Eastern cuisines. But, as with the examples above, even Szechuan can be matched.
If, however, I'm in a place that serves "Chinese" food but is not terribly authentic -- one that seems to cater to westerners in terms of portion size, service style, etc., and has no discernable regional identity -- I might look toward wine. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for decent by-the-glass selections in this type of place, particularly if the restaurant charges a relatively "high end" price for food/service and has a bottle list with higher end choices.
When one gives up one's authenticity in exchange for $$$, that's fine, but one also gives up one's right to hide behind the cloak of authenticity and takes on new burdens. One of those burdens is to provide beverage choices that complement and are consistent with ones pricing, food, and service. "Selling out" is fine, even an admirable spur to creativity in many cases, but one must then deliver on the sale.
Rant mode off.
Pleasure mode on...a few highlights of the week:
-- Goose intestines in hot chili oil (the first of the Szechuan preparations described above) -- at lunch so with (jasmine) tea
-- Fresh, local frog in Szechuan pepper oil (the second of the Szechuan preparations described above) -- with local Beijing beer
-- Awesome local duck breast, broiled in a super hot, wood-fired oven so that skin was crisp and meat was medium rare, served with thin sesame buns and a Szechuan pepper/salt dip -- in a new style restaurant with a pretty good wine list -- wanted wine, but this was lunch and there was a very long afternoon ahead
-- Jellyfish marinated in garlic and Zhejiang black vinegar, which provided the perfect balancing foil to the rich unctuousness of Beijing duck -- with (Chinese green) tea
It seems that every time I am in Beijing, I eat more Szechuan food that anything else. Szechuan is the most popular cuisine in Northern China and can be found on just about every other corner, in restaurants ranging from very high end to very cheap and from regionally authentic to a pan-China melange.
Take care,
Jim (back in Tokyo -- sure to miss good Chinese food until my next trip, but looking forward to tonight and a bottle of wine with some food to match)
Really very interesting comments but I think we will have to agree to differ since the article agrees with my feelings on Chinese food and, IMHO, is *not* plain wrong. I only quoted it to explain why a good wine list should not be expected in a Chinese restaurant but you are not likely to find me buying wine there.
You know, in addition to somehow managing to double post my response, I also came on really strong. On rereading my response, I realize that the tone is way too aggressive and I apologize. I actually thought your basic point was on target -- the difficulty of matching wine with family-style Chinese meals. Like you, I seldom drink wine with authentically served Chinese food. However, I do think decent (and sometimes good) matches are possible.
That said, I do think that the author of the about.com article does a disservice by overgeneralizing Chinese food. You or I may know better than to apply what she says to every region of China, but many people do not. I'm happy to agree to disagree, but her "tea only at the end of the meal" observation is just completely contrary to my experiences over the past five years eating in Beijing, Hong Kong, and Taipei, as well as with Teo Chiu families in Thailand (families that still speak Teo Chiu at home and cannot even read Thai fluently).
I'll admit to a bit of oversensitivity to people who treat "Asian" culture, "Chinese" culture, or any other amalgamation of very different cultures and people as monolithic. All too often, this is what happens when we simplify down to the least common denominator for "Dummy's Guide to...", about.com, or (I suspect) _The Everything Chinese Cookbook_.
Sorry for ranting with a bit too much vociferousness and thanks for your temperate response.
It's obvious that your knowledge of eating with Chinese people is greater than mine. China is a big country and I've never been there. I do know Chinese people who occasionally eat in non-family style, for example going to a particular restaurant in New York for its specialty, sea cucumber, and then moving on! I believe they drink tea with it. That being said, such eclecticism is outside my own experience and I have not seen much evidence of it in the DC area.
Jim, Although it is probably old news to the crowd here in afw, the point that Chinese cuisine is far from monolithic can't be stressed enough. Just as there exist real and important regional distinctions in French, Italian and Mexican cooking, so too are there profound linguistic, cultural and culinary distinctions between the many regions of China. All too often here in the US, you see Cantonese, Sichuan, Shanghainese and Northern Chinese dishes all thrown together on a menu -- which is also usually a guarantee for low-quality food. FWIW, I was schooled on authentic FOB (fresh off the boat) Cantonese cooking in the SF Bay Area before shipping out to NYC where I first encountered genuinine Shanghai cooking. While I was there in the '80s, I recall reading of the opening of a restaurant in Washington DC (sponsored by the Chinese embassy) that featured authentic regional cuisine from at least 10 different provinces, using chefs brought in from those regions. Alas, I never got around to dining there. More's the pity, since I still have probably only encountered 6 different Chinese cuisines in the US: Cantonese/Hong Kong, Shanghai, Sichuan, Hunan, Beijing and Nanjing. All the more reason for me to wangle a speaking invitation to China, I suppose...
in article kYudnfXKpcbP6 snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com, Mark Lipton at snipped-for-privacy@eudrup.ude wrote on 4/25/05 3:59 PM:
To try to bring this discussion back to where it started for a moment....... it seems to me that the 'lack' of Western wine choices at Chinese restaurants (regardless of quality or cost level) is essentially a factor of authenticity and cultural tradition much more than one of the diversity of the regional cuisines or family-style dining customs making it hard to pick a wine style. I said it earlier......... Western style wine is just not a part of the Chinese culture (food, drink, or otherwise), even if it may now be growing as a part of modern Chinese acceptance of Western influences. The "why" of that is, I would think, the simple result of centuries of history in which different types of beverage-related crops were grown and resulting product consumed. Alcohol is no stranger in that part of the world, but grapes certainly have been strangers.
I personally would welcome the opportunity to try different Western varieties of wine with authentic Chinese regional dishes, but expecting the restaurant to do that is really kind of disrespectful, in a way, now that I've had some time to think it through.
" personally would welcome the opportunity to try different Western varieties of wine with authentic Chinese regional dishes, but expecting the restaurant to do that is really kind of disrespectful, in a way, now that I've had some time to think it through. "
Indeed. And as I stated earlier, when I go to a Chinese restaurant that goes for regional authencity, I usually happily drink beer or water. Most of these places in NY serve one white and one red wine. But in this case:
1) Shun Lee is an upper-end Americanized restaurant
2) It includes Cantonese, Szechuan, Hunan, & Shanghai dishes, as well as some indeterminate "Chinese" ones. Choices include alligator, ostrich, and buffalo, unsure as to authencity of those.
3) It includes several white choices and several reds. The vast majority of it's customers DO drink wine (and waiter asks would you like cocktail or wine).
My point in this situation is that if they're spending time training busboys to dash over to prettily fold one's napkin when customer visits the restroom, couldn't they spend more than 4 minutes deciding on wine?
in article snipped-for-privacy@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com, DaleW at snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote on 4/26/05 5:02 AM:
Dale,
This subject has turned out to have more to it than I would have thought when I read your original post. I've been to Shun Lee (on W. 65th ST) and understand what you mean about the atmosphere, service and menu belying a defense of maintaining pure Chinese cultural tradition. It does seem to be a matter of simply questioning why, if they would accommodate their clientele by offering Western wine at all, they would not offer wines more consistent with their overall ambience(?). It might be interesting to ask their management.
However, in following this subject here, and on a food board I frequent, I've now seen a very substantial case made for the opinion that pairing Western wine with Chinese cuisine (and Indian) is truly extremely difficult, if not impossible. This link is to a food blog that focuses on Chinese food in the San Francisco Bay Area and offers an article from Bloomberg news on the subject:
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Is there room in this for the possibility that a place like Shun Lee is intentionally 'dumbing down' the wine choices so their patrons don't spend good money on wines that will be disappointing with their food? And what about the opinion that drinking great wine, with a cuisine that fights it, is a sacrilege in itself? Just a couple of other perspectives.
""Cantonese/Hong Kong, Shanghai, Sichuan, Hunan, Beijing and Nanjing"
I'm not sure I've ever seen a Nanjing place (similar to Shanghai?), but can find the others in NYC easily. There are also some Chiu Chow places, which differ subtlely from Hong Kong. Plus a couple Tibetan places, which the Chinese government will tell you are Chinese. :(
House of Nanjing in SF is my only data point there, but the place is quite well known (and well reputed). Conversely, I've never heard of Chiu Chow, but will have to look for some. And don't get me started about Tibet...
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