Salon Vins Passion.

My point exactly Monsieur; an Australian or New Zealand winemaker (and I am guessing one from Chile, South Africa, the US etc.) - call it in the name of experimentation or innovation or eccentricity - such a person would not be *breaking the law* in trying something different or unconventional.

A point of interest - was said product labelled or *cleanskin* - and if it was labelled, surely it wasn't called Tokaji or Eszencia ?

Salut/Hi st.helier,

le/on Tue, 27 Jan 2004 21:47:18 +1300, tu disais/you said:-

I know. However, when some day a cowboy or two starts producing "Marlborough Sauvignon Blanc" from Gros plant in a completely different area..... Rules get drawn up up in response to dishonesty. When one area is clearly defined, and completely planted up, and demand outstrips supply, people get tempted.

I can't say anything more in public, except that neither Tokaj(i) nor Eszencia were on the label. Experimentation does take place, of course, despite very strict and (IMO) often very silly appellation laws.

With the greatest of respect, my friend, of course there exist laws or regulations against "passing off" or blatant fraud in most parts of the winemaking world (and remember here that I have always been scathing of the blatant misuse of geographic names!) - but this is nothing to do with the "freedom" to be insane enough to plant shiraz in Bordeaux to make a sparkling wine - *if one chose to do so*!!!!!!!

It appears, from your example of French eszencia, that there is at least one French winemaker who agrees that some rules stifle creativity.

But you could name the grape variety/ies, don't you?

M.

Chenin blanc, of course...

Mike

Salut/Hi st.helier,

le/on Wed, 28 Jan 2004 09:34:46 +1300, tu disais/you said:-

But don't forget that in France, most wines are called by the area in which their grapes are grown. It has to be obvious that a wine of that type _couldn't_ be called "AOC Bordeaux". Most rules have to do with ensuring that a dumb customer gets what he expects to get.

I don't really want to get involved in an argument over a subject we've already talked about before. I agree that the AOC regulations have turned out to be a straitjacket for producers, instead of being a guarantee of authenticity, which is what they were originally designed to be. I can well understand (and approve of) the reasons for their development, but I also believe passionately that talented winemakers should be _encouraged_ to experiment, rather being sanctioned for it.

Why "of course"? Never was the region mentioned, only the provenance "France".

M.

You are right. However, I thought you were aware of who in France had attempted such experiments.

Mike

] On 30 Jan 2004 09:14:00 GMT, Michael Pronay wrote: ] ] >Mike Tommasi wrote: ] >

] >>>But you could name the grape variety/ies, don't you? ] >

] >> Chenin blanc, of course... ] >

] >Why "of course"? Never was the region mentioned, only the ] >provenance "France". ] ] You are right. However, I thought you were aware of who in France had ] attempted such experiments. ] ] Mike

Hi,

A question generally on the legality issue. I've lived in France long enough to know that asking "why" it's illegal is silly, but "how" is it illegal? Calling it wine?

Surely it is possible to experiment with a beverage so long as it isn't commercialized? Or is it strictly an AOC problem that I misread?

Thanks for your clarifications, gents.

-E

Sorry Michele, absolutely not.

M.

Here's another legal Catch 22.

Last night at a tasting of Bandol that I organized in Italy, we did 5 x 2001 vintage wines. As you know, this is one of the best vintages in history, and the wines were deep, ripe, concentrated yet balanced, elegant. Tempier a rich nose more like the pre-96 vintages, back in great form after years of so-so-ness, some (typical) animal notes but fine acidity brought by a small percentage of Carignan. Terrebrune all finesse as always yet a colour and depth never before seen at this domaine. Dupere Barrera in great form, beautiful aroma, super rich. Suffrene incredible, a discovery for me, deep concentration yet airy and light despite the highest alcohol level of the 5. Gaussen, 3 bad bottles with real reduction problem.

Now the problem is that if the average alcohol degree in this area is

13, in 2001 most wines were between 14 and 15. Or so is marked on the bottle. Because anything over 15 is NOT WINE legally speaking.

Now the last one, Domaine de Suffrene (I had never paid attention to this domaine, now I definitely will, it is beautiful wine) not only was it 16 degrees, but the guy even marked it on the label. I am sure the others were all over 15, but they labelled it a discrete 14.5 or

2. You see, according to the customs authority, anything over 15 can only be produced by adding alcohol (vin mute'). So if you mark 16 on the bottle, you can be asked to show the documents proving where you bought the pure alcohol that you added. Otherwise it would mean that you obtained it by contraband, or worse, by distilling it yourself. There is no use telling the Douane that you did not add any and that that alcohol degree is natural, because in the customs rules, that IS NOT POSSIBLE. Catch 22.

Not only that, but a wine that is over 15 CANNOT BE CALLED WINE AT ALL. It is a liqueur, and is therefore taxed at a much higher excise rate.

Yikes.

Mike

[snip] ] Here's another legal Catch 22. ] ] Last night at a tasting of Bandol that I organized in Italy, we did 5 ] x 2001 vintage wines. As you know, this is one of the best vintages in ] history, and the wines were deep, ripe, concentrated yet balanced, ] elegant. Tempier a rich nose more like the pre-96 vintages, back in ] great form after years of so-so-ness, some (typical) animal notes but ] fine acidity brought by a small percentage of Carignan. Terrebrune all ] finesse as always yet a colour and depth never before seen at this ] domaine. Dupere Barrera in great form, beautiful aroma, super rich. ] Suffrene incredible, a discovery for me, deep concentration yet airy ] and light despite the highest alcohol level of the 5. Gaussen, 3 bad ] bottles with real reduction problem. ]

I've heard great things about '01, but haven't tasted one yet. I will note these indeed! Have you had the Ste Anne yet? Glad to hear Tempier is back on track after some disappointing years.

] Now the problem is that if the average alcohol degree in this area is ] 13, in 2001 most wines were between 14 and 15. Or so is marked on the ] bottle. Because anything over 15 is NOT WINE legally speaking. ][snip]

Yikes indeed. This sort of rule really doesn't help with the current climate of international competion, either, although one can see how it was perhaps once germane...

-E