Various, RAMBLING, wine questions from a newbie

"

BTW, the word in "think."

Hunt

Yeth, I gnow!

I know what Ripasso is. I was just surprised that someone paid $36 for it! I didn't think it was that expensive!

Hunt wrote:

Salut/Hi Jeff,

I'm so glad you didn't do what you might have done after the stupid reception you got - disappear from this NG.

le/on Wed, 29 Mar 2006 22:09:10 -0500, tu disais/you said:-

Well, he knows a bit about Italian wines, but nevertheless his views about so many other aspects surrounding wine are SO extreme that one can't trust him on anything. If you want peace and quiet, put him in your kill file. Some of us haven't learnt to do that yet and get involved in silly and sterile arguments with him. Others keep an eye on what he says, if only to be able to try to undo some of his damage.

Now it's interesting that you should say that, because most people say that it's the oaked California Chardonnay's that show that characteristic, and if you ask him, Mark Lipton will probably be able to tell you what the chemical is that gives that flavour. However, if you found it in an unoaked chardonnay, then that's where you foind it. I'm certainly not about to tell you that you're wrong. :-)

Well, I find myself in some difficulty here. I don't want to contradict Steve here, but I find for example that the taste of a Pinot Noir based wine from Alsace, from Burgundy, from Oregon, from the Central Otago valley in New Zealand and from southern California are _widely different. I've been lucky enough to taste all of these in the wineries, and - with the possible exception of the New Zealand wine, would be prepared to taste blind and have a fair idea of where they came from. I'm not going to pretend I'd never get it wrong, but I think that the _average_ wines, if such a concept has any meaning have quite characteristic differences. OK, the Pinot Noir is notorious for showing up the effect of terroir, to the extent that you can taste wines (and I've done it) made by the same Burgundy Grower in the same year, from the same clone and vinified in the same way, from two parcels of land only 100 yeards apart, and you can immediately taste the difference between them. However, I think more or less the same could be said for the Merlot, as grown in Washington State, in Pomerol, in Ticino and in Hungary. Similarly the Malbec as grown in Bordeaux, in Cahors and in Argentina. Everyone agrees that the Argentinian wines bear little relationship to the wines grown from the same grapes in France.

All that said... there's probably more difference between wines made from different grapes in the same vineyard than between the same grapes grown in different vineyards. But only just - and a malicious tease could certainly find exceptions that "proved the rule".

I don't think many of us are so wealthy that we can afford to waste a lot of money on a bottle. Some are much better off than others, but no one wants to buy bad value for money.

Well Dale Williams and Ewan McNay, to mention but two old timers here both live nearby and I guess you'll find others who live in the same state and who'd be delighted to suggest some wines to try.

By the way, when I was in Walla-Walla I tried the old Pillar Box Red and was very favourably impressed with it. Excellent vfm. I think I even bought a couple to take to California with me.

Don't be put off by sediment in a wine, by the way. It happens and it often shows a wine that has been treated less harshly than most large scale industrial wineries do.

Anyway, stick around and ask as many questions as you like. Mostly someone will answer if they know. And - don't be put off by the egregious UC. Even the USA has a few idiots living within its borders.

Sorry, Ian, but it's a common misconception that the oak imparts the buttery character, whereas in fact it's a byproduct of the malolactic fermentation that most Chandonnays are put through. It is perhaps possible that, under some circumstances, oak could impart some butter notes to a wine, but AFAIK it's not the norm (bonus: the name of the molecule is diacetyl and is used to impart the butter flavor to microwave popcorn -- it's a very interesting byproduct of ML)

I'm not so sure, Ian (or perhaps I'm just being contrary today!). Think of the situation in the Medoc, where from year to year the mix of grapes may change quite dramatically, yet the overall character of the vineyard is maintained well enough that experienced tasters can reliably identify it in a blind tasting. That same may (or may not) be true in Chateauneuf-du-Pape, too.

Mark Lipton

Ian/Jeff,

The "buttery" smell is from diacetyl, (or biacetyl) formed durning malolactic (or secondary) fermentation. It can be found in oaked, as well as, un-oaked wines. Chardonnay exhibits it very well, if the secondary fermentation has been allowed, or encouraged. Now Mark can give us the complete equation for its formation, and I hope that he will. To Mark, how is diacetyl formed for use as flavoring in "butter-like" products? Obviously via a chemical interaction without wine.

Hunt

He has his opinions, just like any one else...If I decide I need to ignore him I will. Otherwise, I'll read what he has to say...

As for his stance on Italian wines...the few I've had have probably been commercial, mass produced junk, so I don't really know. Same with German wines. I just really don't know. Shame I wasn't into drinking wine when I was in my late 20s, because I spent a few months in Luxembourg, and we had quite a few decent wines while dining, but it never occured to me to actually look at the bottle. I did find the whites there pretty sweet, though, which I wasn't too fond of. I was primarily a beer drinker back then, and yes, it was good!

Peace and quite on Usenet...pretty funny. :-)

The guy doing the tasting said that there was a lot less oak used in this one then most chardonnays these days. He didn't say there was no oak at all (my mistake). But it definately had a smoother texture and less "bite" as the chardonnays I'm used to. And there was a buttery taste. That may, of course, just have been because it was *better* than the stuff I normally drink.

I liked it, and since then have tried two other "unoaked" chardonnays, or rather, one the says "unoaked" on the label Brampton (sp?) from SA, and another one which was light on the oak from France. Can't remember that one, but the person at the store told me it was the one they had that had the least oak in it...Durn...can't remember. I don't mean to say that I don't like the bitey/oaky taste, it's just nice to have something different once in a while. Lately, though, I have been drinking reds exclusively, since my wife likes them better, and I don't really care that much.

I'm a little leary of a) getting something crappy, and b) looking like some dolt. The popularity of Pinot Noirs now, because of that movie, makes me not want to jump on the "bandwagon". However, at that same tasting I was at, the guy did bring a Pinot Noir...Acacia, I believe, and it was pretty good, but I liked the Goat-Rotie and the Zin he brought much better. Maybe I should try some more.

In addition to those, and the chardonnay that I can't recall, he brought a prosecca?, an Italian champagne type thing, which I'm sure you guys are familiar with....I was leary, because I was immediatly thinking Asti-Spumante, and I can't stand sweet stuff, but it wasn't. I was pleasantly surprised. I like my champagne as dry as it can be. Still have the bottle in the fridge. Do I need to drink this stuff? It's been over a year now...

OK, wine "jargon" there.....what is "terroir"...Maybe I should do what I always yell at my kids....YOU HAVE A DICTIONARY, LOOK IT UP!

Would growers mess with soil? Or would that be too cost prohibitive? I mean, to make any difference in an entire vintage of thousands and thousands of bottles would be hard. How many grapes does it take to make a bottle...500 or so? How many grapes come off the average vine? And I dont' mean, mess with soil as in regular fertilizer or something, but really play around with it...

Well, I just stand there, looking at the racks and racks of wine, and figure that some of them are crappy, some are good. How do I tell? I imagine it would be pretty hard for me to pick at random and find something that is REALLY terrible, but also the reverse applys...I do try to stay away from anything that is filling 3/4 of the shelf, though (like Yellow Tail, Little Penguin, Jacobs Creek, Lindemans, etc)...maybe that is a bad strategy too.

After reading this yesterday afternoon, I tried to find it again and could not. My wife bought it, I'll have to ask her where she got it.

"Whoop-whoop"! Wine jargon alert...What's vfm?

I wasn't...it just caught me by surprise, that's all.

A few. Yes. We have our share of idiots.

Not sure what you mean by "mess with soil", you cannot change the soil, the roots in a proper vineyard go very deep, the surface soil does not affect terroir, only the deep soil. When you have deep roots, the tips of the roots are the most effective in absorbing water and nutrients. The differences in deep soil are easily detected if you make wine in a certain way.

About the math, in a good vineyard you get about one bottle per plant.

Yes, but the two are closely related in the style the wine maker is looking for. In general, Chardonnay that is oaked is also put through MLF and Chardonnay that is fermented in SS has the MLF suppressed, so butter and toast tend to go together.

Andy

Nest step: add jam.

That depends on what wines you're drinking, Andy. In CA, you've got wines like the Ch. Montelena Chardonnay that see little ML but still get the oak treatment (which is also the norm in Chablis). And how about those oaky CA sauvignon blancs? Sure, a few of them get full ML, but the majority I've tried were (thankfully) spared that treatment. I've also had a number of buttery viogniers with no appreciable oakiness (though they were probably barrel aged in older oak). Still, your point that the two often go together is beyond dispute.

Mark Lipton

Sorry Mike, but most of the feeder roots of vines are found in the top 30cm of soil. Deeper roots may access water, but most nutrients exist in the top-soil and immediate sub-soil (from what I've learned) since that's where most of the microbial activity is found. Yes, deep soils are great in a drought-prone, infertile environment, but canopy management becomes a huge issue in deep, fertile soils. I really don't believe that soil is that big a deal, so long as drainage is good. Coonawarra has very thin soils overlying more or less impenetrable limestone, yet it produces some of the best Cabernet in the southern hemisphere. If one can adapt canopy management to soil potential then soil depth/fertility becomes less of an issue.

But, hey, we Colonials are still learning, right? ;)

Marcello

Just add a sip of Concord wine!

Dan-O

Sounds interesting. Being under Stelvin, my assumption that it was a BnB (bag in box) wine is obviously wrong. The Pillar BOX Red threw me. I'll keep an eye out for it though. In really general terms, I have been less a fan of some of the Cab Shiraz Merlot blends, than many folk. That is not to say that I don't try them often, and do find some gems in the bunch, just not as many as I would like to. The price seems very good also. I'll either pour carefully, or decant/caraffe, if I get my hands on some. I wondered about the sediment, as so many BnB wines are over-processed to keep that sort of thing from happening.

Thanks for the notes, Hunt

Salut/Hi Mike P,

le/on Fri, 31 Mar 2006 09:22:47 -0800, tu disais/you said:-

Ah, Thanks!! I was being particularly dumb, as I was thinking of Firehouse Red from Walla walla.

Not my day, yesterday

Salut/Hi Mark Lipton,

le/on Thu, 30 Mar 2006 20:36:22 -0500, tu disais/you said:-

Re-reading that, I could almost pretend that I meant _exactly_ what I said. "Most people say". As it is, I have to admit I forgot. Thanks for the correction.

Well, I can't speak for the mix they use in CdP, which I don't think varies THAT widely from one year to the other.

However, your point over the grapes that go into Bordeaux is well made. That said, you don't get much co-planting there, and so the grapes aren't all grown in the same soil. You talk about "a" Bordeaux vineyard as if it were homogenous and all in one parcel. That's not quite true.

It would be an interesting tasting to match a 100% Malbec from Bordeaux against a 100% Malbec from Cahors and against a 100% Cabernet Sauvignon from the same estates in both regions. I know there are a couple of Chx in Bordeaux who keep some 100% cepage samples, so theoretically it might be possible. Could it be that these Bordeaux cepages were chosen for approval because THEY do have the capacity to give similar profiles in that area. Can I also say that Ch de La Jaubertie in Bergerac makes a Chardonnay, and that it tastes like a Chardonnay, and nothing like the other white Ch de la Jaubertie wines. So in that case, the cepage gives more to the character of the wine than the terroir.

!!!! I just paid $11 US for it! Damn!

Still like it, though.

Oh yes, I did.

OK,...Now...Here's some more wine jargon questions...I get smoky grilled meat, dark cherry, plum, licorace candy, etc., etc., etc (ahtough I'm not sure I tasted or smelled them, but I know what the mean....) What does "tangier", mean. I'll get to the other things later (not necessarily in your post). "broad"?

"Finishes", I guess means, what it tastes like after you're swallowed it, or just before. So, a wine can taste different when you put it in your mouth initially, then when you've finished swallowing it.

Jeff