White wine & oak questions

By "the presence of oak," do you mean the flavors of new oak, Vincent? Aside from those wines vinified in stainless steel, most all wine is aged (and possibly fermented) in oak barrels of one size or another. Many of those wines, however, won't taste "oaky" because the barrels aren't new (and most of the "oaky" flavor has been previously extracted). AFAIK, no rules specifically forbid oak aging, but there may be some regulations that require it. I am not familiar enough with various regional rules to know, though.

Certain wines/regions have a tradition of not being overtly oaky: NZ Sauvignons, Rieslings, Chablis, most white wines from the Loire and Alsace and Italy. However, especially in CA or for "International" wines, all bets are off. I've had Viogniers and Sauvignon Blancs from CA that were so oaky as to be unrecognizable *sigh* One thing I've noted is that the "Reserve" designation on a CA white wine is a fairly reliable indicator for heavy-handed use of oak.

A classic pairing with raw oysters is Muscadet from the Loire, a distinctly non-oaky wine; another would be Champagne, again non-oaky.

Mark Lipton

There are many regulations which require oak ageing: Rioja (Crianza, Reserva, Gran Reserva), all other Spanish Reserva & Gran Reserva wines; Chianti, Brunello, Barolo, Barbaresco and many others, the longest unfortified requirement being 6 years for Château-Chalon (vin jaune from the French Jura), fortified it's 20 years for vintage Madeira.

But no single regulation requires the use of new oak (totally or in part), some (as vin jaune) even ruling out new oak.

M.

Add most whites from Austria: Grüner Veltliner, Rieslings, Sauvignons, and Pinot Blancs etc. Avoid Chardonnay to be on the safe side.

M.

I would add to this Mark that American oak seems to be the predominant material for barrels in Australia and it makes the oakiness even more pronounced than one would find in a California wine using French oak.

Comparing French and American oak is almost like comparing apples and oranges. French oak is much more restrained - especially on the nose. American oak has a racy nose that I find more interesting than French on some wines (Cabernet, e.g.) but it lacks the sweet, round palate of French oak. IMO the best is a combination of the two for Bordeaux blends/Cabernet/Merlot, and _new_ of course.

Sorry if that's a bit OT, but oak is a favorite subject of mine. :^)

Tom S

A loaded question! OK, I'll bite. IMO the one white wine that seems to require (and indeed _devour_) oak is Chardonnay.

Muscat comes to mind.

Not really, but it's pretty safe to say that most California Chardonnay and white Burgundies (except for Chablis) will have seen oak for at least part of their "lives".

Personal opinion? Yes!

Here's an interesting note: At a recent, outrageously expen$ive dinner at a highly touted quasi-French restaurant, one of the courses was lobster, accompanied by a very oaky - even by my standards - Chardonnay. It was a near *perfect* match! I guess the lesson is that oaky white wines go well with at least _some_ rich foods.

Tom S

Which raises an interesting the question - one occasionally hears oak connoisseurs banging on about the various merits of using Vosges vs Limousin vs Nevers and other French oak - are there many different types of American oak used for barriques? Martin

Amphibolite, by Domaine de la Luvetiere, is a Muscadet so good that you might not believe it is Muscadet ;-)))

Ehm, there are some oaky Champagnes, our friend Francis Boulard makes a solera type Champagne with a very well integrated oakiness...

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France email link

Thank you for coming to my rescue, Michael. I suspected that Spanish rules would require oak aging, given the traditional style of Rioja, but didn't have the time to look it up myself (especially when people like you have this knowledge "at your fingertips").

Mark Lipton

Well then, if it's a favorite subject of yours, do go on!! Please address the oakiness of Spanish Chardonnay. These happen to be my favorite Chardonnays. I am somewhat limited in my experience and knowledge (though I have been drinking them without analyzing why I like them so much for YEARS). Vega Sindoa is a nice affordable selection. The oakiness is somewhat pronounced, but does not get in the of the other flavors present (some American and Australian Chardonnays seem somewhat clumsy in this department). Do you agree?

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Well then, if it's a favorite subject of yours, do go on!! Please address the oakiness of Spanish Chardonnay. These happen to be my favorite Chardonnays. I am somewhat limited in my experience and knowledge (though I have been drinking them without analyzing why I like them so much for YEARS). Vega Sindoa is a nice affordable selection. The oakiness is somewhat pronounced, but does not get in the WAY of the other flavors present (some American and Australian Chardonnays seem somewhat clumsy in this department). Do you agree?

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Martin we have a member of this group that is in the barrel business and maybe he will answer your question in detail. The forests of North America were not denuded in the past like Europe and there is little or no business of growing oak trees. The French oaks are in well managed forests and the ones used for barrels are usually over a hundred years old. In the US, the barrel makers were making whiskey barrels and oak has been so plentiful, they hardly had to pay for it. Just walk around and find one. In the US the wood is sawed and kiln dried. In Europe it is split and air dried for a couple of years. There is probably enough oak in 80% of the states to satisfy the US barrel makers. I would think that the oak that is used in Australia comes from Arkansas or Missouri where a lot of the barrel making is centered.

I was expecting someone to point that out, Mike. By oaky, do you mean that f6 uses new oak for flavor, or that he oak ages for rounding out the wine?

Mark Lipton

Hi Mark

His Petraea is vinified and matured in barriques, then assembled using a solera (every year you draw and bottle a certain quantity, and refill the barrels with the new wine.

A remarkable champagne to drink with a meal.

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France email link

That's a gross oversimplification. American oak is a different species from French. It (American oak) has a denser structure of tyloses, which are structures in the wood that cross the sieve tubes and block the flow of liquid. That permits permits American oak to be sawn into staves without leakage occurring in the resulting barrels. French oak needs to be split along the grain to preclude leakage.

While it is true that most American barrels are made from kiln dried and steam bent wood, those are typically made for the whiskey distilleries. American barrels made for wine are usually air dried and fire bent in the same manner as French or other European barrels.

Don't forget Kentucky and Oregon. There are probably other states as well.

Tom S

Yes, and I believe I know why. It's my experience that Chardonnay and oak integrate best if the wine is fermented in the barrel, and left therein - on its lees - for the entire duration of barrel aging. The French claim that the lees "feed" the wine, and although that may be a bit anthropomorphic it does seem to describe the phenomenon in a general sense. As opposed to that are wines that are tank fermented and put "clean" into new barrels for aging. This tends to result in the typical "wood plank" or 2x4 character that wine critics love to hate.

As far as Spanish Chardonnays go, I have little experience - but I was very impressed by one I tasted a few years ago in Spain. It had been fermented in new French oak, and was really very nice - especially for the price, which was ~$12US at the time (October 2001). I'd recognize the name if I saw it again, but it isn't Vega Sindoa.

Tom S

Hi Vincent,

Such a simple questi Firstly, as others have said, it's quite important to differentiate between _new_ oak which gives the flavour profile you're thinking about, and old oak (3rd or 4th usage) which gives very little "oakiness" as such but helps a wine to gain complexity.

Not of themselves, no, but I think it's fair to say that (as Tom S said) Chardonnay is the varietal which most often seems to require it (and often IMO gets too much). However when properly handled, and in a wine with enough fruit to require it, oak doesn't have to dominate.

No, though there are a few which get it very rarely. Muscadet, Champagne (not a varietal, admittedly, but a wine easily recognised) Sauvigon especially from NZ, but also from some french regions. Bordeaux, Bergerac, Pouilly-s-Loire and its better known siblings are fairly often made without oak.

Viognier is often made without oak, so are many Alsace cepages, though none are ruined by its judicious use.

Not really with any certainty, though often Sauvignons mention it if they use oak (proudly,ty Domionicioo).

IMO, yes. Just for the anecdote,(cooked oysters) we ate out with Tom S tonight at a seafood restaurant here in Los Angeles before heading East tomorrow morning, and I had their Oyster Stew (I was curious about the dish) (followed by a seafood Jamabalaya. Both were excellent, and both went extremely well with the Austrian Gruner Veltiner by (???) Jurschisch. Dreadful label, nice wine with little signs of oak. I have once had a sweet wine with raw oysters, done as a challenge by Dominici, and while it was a lot less awful than I expected, it wasn't a _great_ match.

All the best

Ian Hoare (despite the sig!)

john shaw wrote in news:opsir73jen4tgne9@toshiba-user:

It's Jurtschitsch from Langenlois/Kamptal.

Regards, Robert

Almost. Jur_t_schi_t_sch.

Dreadful? Hmmm, in this case it can't have been their standard label which is far from dreadful:

I think it might have been their "GrüVe":

Note that it's an artist label. Christian Ludwig Attersee, Bratisklava-born painter living in Austria, has been painting the labels since 1987.

More on this wine - always the earliest and lightest bottling of Jurtschitsch's Grüner Veltliner portfolio - and on the artist, including a label gallery - to be seen here:

GrüVe is 100% stainless steel.

M.