European white & red 1999s - and a short rant

The answer is simple : you are not allowed to in VQPRD wines (AOC, DOC, DO, etc..)

This is of course absurd.

I could write three pages about this, for now let's just say that there are many attempts to discuss how one can make wine from the EU more readable and more sellable. Most are going about it the wrong way, by reforming their own country regulations and, in fact, making things even more complicated (witness the AOCE proposal in France). The solution lies in a European reform resulting in a clear single classification that covers all EU countries and that may be used anywhere in the world.

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France email link

"Tom S" in news:60Auc.62182$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com...

1. They do, precisely. By law. An Hermitage is an Hermitage, a Brunello di Montalcino likewise, a Rioja (generally) too.
2. You can look up the implied part (grape varietals etc.) easily. Or just enjoy the wine.

History. We have some of it even in the Americas.

-- Max

Great idea. Need not even be compulsory. The main point should be to

Do you really think there is the smallest chance of it happening?

Almost nil.

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France email link

Oh, so you're saying that Hermitage is made from Hermitage grapes, Brunello from Brunello grapes, etc.? That's patently false! Brunello is made from Sangiovese Grosso. Why can't they put that on the label? They do so in other parts of Europe. I've seen French wines that say "Pinot Noir" or "Chardonnay" on the label, as well as Spanish that say "Cabernet Sauvignon" and Alsatian that say "Pinot Blanc". Why are the Italians (in particular) so _not_ forthcoming? It isn't as though it's a trade secret. I know Mike said it's against the law to put it on the label, but how about on the _back_ label somewhere?

I know perfectly well that I can Google the appellation and get a pretty good idea of what's in a particular bottle, but why must I go to such extremes? A lot of those web pages are in Italian, and I have poor foreign language skills. :^(

Max said, "just enjoy the wine", but I need to have some general idea of what to expect from the bottle before I buy it, or it will simply remain on the shelf and I'll buy something else instead.

Tom S

Well, actually Brunello IS made from Brunello (a particular clone of Sangiovese), or so the legend goes.

I don't find European nomenclature especially confusing. People managed to get by with it for hundreds of years. Grange used to be called Grange Hermitage (no one would have known what Grange Syrah was).

Sure, with the super-Tuscans where there is no tradtion, a back label listing cepage might be useful. But by same token maybe California Chardonnay makers should list their barrel regime, what residual sugar is in their "dry" wine, or tell what the other 24.5% of grapes are. Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

"La Chablisienne" is IIRC the local co-op, who do a quite decent job by and large. To me, you can really experience the beauty of Chablis by pairing it with a lighter fish such as sole or flounder. Ain't nothing wrong with pairing it with scallops, either! ;-)

Tom, Mike T. has given you the legal reasons already. What you must understand is that their labeling reflects a different philosophy of what determines the character of the wine: in the New World, we've adopted the view that grape == character, whereas in the Old World (by and large) the view is that region determines character, both because of the now-controversial concept of terroir and the results of centuries of experimentation that has resulted in the choice of particular grapes for particular places (i.e., Syrah in the N. Rhone, Mourvedre in Bandol and Pinot Noir in the Cote D'Or). If one views place as primary, there is no imperative to place a grape name on the label. To me, the clearest illustration of this is in the Medoc. A given Chateau (e.g., Lafite) has its own distinct character, present in its wine year in and year out; however, the blend of grapes that goes into the wine can be quite different year-to-year. So, if the grapes were the all important thing, why can tasters routinely identify Lafite vis-a-vis e.g. Haut-Brion?

Mark Lipton

That is a tricky question, Mark, because personally I find them to be quite similar in style. Probably that's why I like them both better than the other first growths.

But that's really not the point I was trying to make. I just want to know what's _in_ the bottle. If it's an Italian wine, I already _know_ it came from Italy - and I also know _where_ in Italy.

I bought a bottle of Chianti a couple of weeks ago. It was from a good vintage, a solid producer and it wasn't cheap ($24US). I *hated* it! Turns out it was 10% Cabernet and 5% Merlot. Although the Italian laws have been revised to allow this sort of blend to be designated as "Chianti", I think it's a huge mistake to muck about with a good thing, and I want to be able to tell the cepage by reading the label. Is that so unreasonable?

Besides, all that data is instructive over the long term. I used to read the liner notes on rock 'n roll albums - a practice that drove one of my friends crazy. All he cared about was the nusic. I was interested in more depth than that. I feel that the same goes for wine appreciation - except moreso.

I believe that Ridge has done the best job of a back label of anyone in the industry. They tell you *everything* about what's in the bottle, how it was made, when to drink it at its prime. That's what I want to see on _every_ bottle I buy.

Tom S

No, it's not unreasonable (and I love the Ridge back labels). But since you phrased this originally as a rant against European labeling, what if this wine was Californian? Label could (and probably would) say Sangiovese, with no mention of Cabernet or Merlot.

Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

"Tom S" in news:QxIuc.62297$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com...

Calm down, Tom. I did get your point of course, and I see value in giving European labels flexibility to _add_ supplemental information. I see no harm for consumers (even if done for questionable reasons), and it is in producers' interest, to help sell their products.

No such proposal should occur seriously, in my opinion, nor would occur in the countries involved, without a full understanding that the present European wine-appellation regulations are a relatively recent _triumph_ over earlier unreliable, inconsistent, opportunistic, sometimes fraudulent labeling (in some countries more than others). Also, the honest place-name based European wine labeling reflects, of course, hundreds or thousands of years of understanding and accepting what those names implied for the wine inside. (Even before the advent of Google.)

Finally, for people in a remote young place like the US, continuously producing wine for all of 71 years, internationally known for it for 30, to actually demand, as some now do, that older established wines of the world change their labels to accommodate its own neophyte wine consumers' preferences and peculiarities is embarrassing to me as a wine lover and US citizen.

Max Hauser

Oh, c'mon Max. Couldn't you be a _little_ more patronizing than that? What you're saying amounts to the same thing as "we (Europeans) have always done it that way, so it has to be right".

When an argument gets to the point of one side's parading its credentials, it's because that's all the ammunition it has left in its arsenal, and the other side has already won.

Tom S

Good point, Dale. I'd hate for us to do that too. I want full disclosure. That's part of what I'm paying for. IMO I have that right, and the better wineries honor that.

Tom S

It seems to me that most of the info we're talking about should be on the back label. And in most cases the back label for European wines imported to US is the responsibility of the importer, as far as I can tell. So the appropriate place to put pressure (well, state preferences) is to the US importer. Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

Sorry, Max. Should have put a ;^) at the end of that. On rereading, I find my tone a bit too abrasive. I guess you touched a nerve. :^/

BTW, I'm perfectly well aware that you aren't a European citizen.

Tom S

Varietel labeling is a NEW WORLD concept, France & Italy have been at it for soooo long they simply ASSUME that you know what grapes go with what regions... It's only us in North America that NEED to know what's in a Bordeaux.... By the bye, blends have been on the rise in our neck of the woods for a few years too. Don't mean this to sound like an attack & I apologies in advance if someone else in this thread has covered this point. Personally, I kinda like the romance & mystery of the regional labeling... (with the exception of most of Italy, which frustrates the hell out of me).

there's my short rant in return....

En Vino Veritas Mathew

I'm aware of that, but the cepage is not constant from year to year - even from the same château - so I'd like to have that data at my fingertips. It helps me to understand the wines better, the more I know about them.

Tom S

Re your rant - well, it's because us europeans know that Chiati is made from sangiovesi, that chablis is chardonnay, burgundy is pinot noir, N Rhone is Syrah etc. We don't need that info on the bottle - what would be the point?

Regards

Peter Taylor

Tom was asking why the varieties are not mentioned. I knew this post would invite the usual beginner's guide to France... ;-)

Oh, the italian grape is Sangiovese, Chianti has an "n", Burgundy is Pinot Noir only if it's red.

I think that info could be put on the bottle to help the 90% of people (and that goes for France too, BTW), that have no idea waht grapes go into a Burgundy, a Northern Rhone...

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France email link

And how many can claim to know all 13 of the grapes in CdP without reference to a written source? Or the myriad of grapes used in Italy? [Michael P excepted, of course! ;-)]

While it certainly could be useful, Mike, I still hold that most US consumers need to focus less on grape and more on place. If they can learn to say with confidence, "That tastes like a Hermitage and that's a Cornas" then the fact that both are 100% Syrah may take on less importance.

Just my devalued US$0.02, Mark Lipton