Hybrids

Luk, I like certain hybrids just fine, especially Chambourcin and Vidal Blanc, but they seem to be produced mainly in non-traditional wine producing states. I think that's the main reason why you don't hear or see much about them.

Dan-O

In the early history of the US, European grapes were planted in the East. For the most part, these vines died. Part of the problem was that the European grape vine roots could not tolerate some insect pests. At a much later time it was found that some European varities such as Riesling, grafted onto native US variety rooots, could live in some areas such as New York, if given special care. The huge temperature variation in many central parts of the country is a factor too. Where I live, temperatures have ranged from -15 F to 115 F.

Wines were, and still sometimes are, made from several varities of native US grapes. These wines often taste much different from European wines, and most people find they taste unattractive. Thus many hybrid grapes were developed, both for wine and table grapes. Some of these grapes produce rather decent wine when given very good care. However, in areas where pure European varieties can be grown (California, Pacific NW, etc), these usually are used for making fine wines. Of course some hybrids are crosses of European varieties, while others are crosses of European and US varieties.

snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote on 23 Nov 2005 13:38:52 -0800:

c> In the early history of the US, European grapes were planted c> in the East. For the most part, these vines died. Part of c> the problem was that the European grape vine roots could not c> tolerate some insect pests.

AFAIK, all serious wine production is the result of using European grapes grafted onto American rootstocks to avoid the phylloxera parasite. I believe I have heard that non-grafted grapes *are* still being used but I don't know where. I'd be interested if anyone could post more information and also details of the wines.

Hybrids of American and European grapes were apparently quite successful and I remember drinking quite decent wine from the Baco Noir and other hybrids from New York State. However, I tend to agree that the wines were not so good as to be worth the trouble since European grapes *will* grow in the Ukraine and also in New York State as Konstantin Frank demonstrated. Again, I haven't come across wines from hybrids lately and I wonder if they are still being made tho I have recently enjoyed wine from the Frank winery.

James Silverton.

Some vines were planted on their native European rootstocks in a few of the new areas in California in the 60s. I have not kept up with how many of these vineyards have had to be replaced with European vines grafted to US roots. I believe I have read that some South American vines were not grafted. Quinta do Noval "Nacional" port is still made from grapes from ungrafted vines in a tiny vineyard. It will cost you a small fortune in an outstanding year. Collares did not have to be grafted, because the insects did not find the very deep sand by the sea in which the vines were planted to be a very good home. I have heard mention of tiny pockets of ungrafted vines in Burgundy and Champagne, but these are a very rare exception. Bollinger Vieilles Vignes Francaises Champagne is made from ungrafted Pinot Noir. It is in short supply and quite expensive. If I remember correctly, Romanee-Conti still had ungrafted vines until the end of WWII, but grafted vines then had to be planted, and there was no more outstanding Romanee-Conti until many years after the exceptional 1945.

I've encountered non-grafted Pinot Noir in the Santa Maria area. As I recall, the Sierra Madre Vineyard is planted on its own rootstock in sandy soil, and has been so for 30 or more years. I made some Pinot Noirs from that vineyard in the 1980s, and the fruit was really good even then. Try Byron's vineyard designated wines for a taste.

Some of the hybrids are indeed good, as is wine made from Norton (AKA Cynthiana), which is a non-Labrusca, non Vinifera native American varietal.

Tom S

Are crosses of vinifera varietals, e.g. Cabernet Sauvignon, properly considered "hybrids"? I thought that term was reserved for crosses between vinifera and American varietals. Am I confused? ;^)

Tom S

As far as I know, the term used for crosses between vinifera and native American varietals is "French Hybrids." I would assume that a cross between two different vinifera varietals could be called a "hybrid," but I haven't often seen the word "hybrid" used by itself in wine literature.

I guess it depends on how much difference between the grapes there must be before you wish to use the word hybrids. Pinot Noir is famous for many variations in Burgundy, but many people refer to these as different clones of Pinot Noir. There are all sorts of crosses between Riesling and other European grapes in Germany in attempts to produce grapes with as much of the Riesling quality as possible. The goal seems to be grapes that ripen earlier than the Riesling, which is a great advantage in many cooler areas of Germany. I would consider such mixed, European parent crosses as hybrids. My dictionary defines hybrid as "an offspring of genetically differing parents." The question is how different is different enough. In the extreme, nearly everything except a true clone could be called a hybrid, because each individual, such as with humans, is slightly different in microscopic genetic characteristics.

There are ungrafted vines in Chile, again owing to their placement in sandy soil that is unappealing to phylloxera.

The use of ungrafted Cabernet Franc in the Loire would appear to be on the upswing. "Franc de Pieds" bottlings are made by Breton and Baudry, and IIRC Clos Roche Blanche also has an ungrafted vine bottling. They are all quite affordable, but rather hard to find (Chambers St. Wines in NYC is a good source).

Mark Lipton

ha scritto nel messaggio news: snipped-for-privacy@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

I know that spotly some ungrafted vines are present in different countries. Even some Barolo from ungrafted vines are produced. Moreover I did not consider vinifera crosses. Soon in Pidmont will come out the first bottles made with chatus-X-barbera cross grapes. I'm interested if the european-american hybrids are in some condition able to produce good wines, and if in Europe their production is forbidden, US is probably the only country where it is possible to taste wines from Baco Noir, Foch etc.

Luk

"hybrid" refers to a cross between different species, for example Vitis vinifera and vitis labrusca. Any cross between varieties of the same species is not a hybrid. So a cross between European (vinifera) varieties are called crosses not hybrids. Müller-Thurgau is a cross. The grape known as Vidal, is the hybrid Vidal 256, made from crossing ugni blanc (vitis vinifera) and Seibel 4986, the latter being in itself a hybrid.

Mike - who 3 weeks ago tasted american "Native Wine" Scuppernong from vitis rotundifolia and still has not gotten over it ;-)

Almost all of Chilean wine grapes are planted ungrafted.

Other than the cases mentioned by others, I recently tasted :

- Hewitson Old Garden pure ungrafted Mourvedre planted in the 1850s in deep sand in southern Barossa, a marvellous experience

- Olivares sweet late harvest Mourvedre from 100 year old ungrafted Mourvedre in Jumilla area of Spain, deep balanced sweet wine at 16 degrees of alcohol, a beauty, think of Porto or rather a Banyuls "muté sur grain" like some of the best guys in Perpignan area can do, but replace those cooked fruit aromas with ... fresh fruit.

I am lucky enough to know one of the fellows at the french INRA institute who take care of the vinifera conservatory, an INCREDIBLE collection of over 6000 varieties of vinifera, all planted ungrafted in the sands on the beach area between Sèe and Marseillan.

Cheers

Some native US wines and US/European hybrid wines are still made in the central US, such as in Missouri and Arkansas. See

Isn't that just the most gawdawful stuff? >8^þ

Who would have expected white Concord wine to be so much worse than Mogen David?

Tom S

Tom wrote on Thu, 24 Nov 2005 20:32:23 GMT:

??>> Mike - who 3 weeks ago tasted american "Native Wine" ??>> Scuppernong from vitis rotundifolia and still has not ??>> gotten over it ;-)

TS> Isn't that just the most gawdawful stuff? >8^þ

TS> Who would have expected white Concord wine to be so much TS> worse than Mogen David?

The Scuppernong grapes I tried eating in Manteo, NC were pretty bad but deciding what is their botanic name gets into the vexed question of the definition of a species. Some people allege 83 species, for example

The author of the web page says that many native grapes "make excellent wine". I'd have to be pretty desperate to try any of them more than once. I think they come pretty close to being examples of German dreimanner Wein: takes three men to drink it, one to actually do it, one to hold him down and a third to pour it down a funnel!

James Silverton Potomac, Maryland.

You can find much more about French-American and other interspecific varieties of US wine grapes at

Although some in Europe tend to think of hybrids as crosses between only European and American vines, this is too limited. This attitude probably is because most early such crosses in France, designed to save the French wine industry from disease before grafting to American root stock proved effective, involved mostly crosses between American and French grapes. For example, Alexis Lichine, in his 3rd edition of the New Encyclopedia of Wines and Spirits, defines a hybrid as a cross between two different vine varieties. He adds that it usually is one of Vitis vinifera stock and one from an American species. Lichine's usage is in line with the standard English dictionary usage of the word hybrid.

Classification of the species of genus Vitishas(grapes) has varied over time, but the classification of Professor Branas seems to be the most used in Europe and academic American circles.

The sub-genus Euvites is broken down into 3 groups, A, B, and C. Group C contains only Vitus vinifera which includes species from Europe and East and central Asia. Group B includes at least 17 subgroups from Eastern Asia, and many of these are from China. One Chinese group is Vitis armata. Group A includes 18 groups from North America, with the often mentionioned Vitis labrusca being only a single one of these.

Now there is a completely different Sub-genus called Muscadiniae which is found in North America. This includes the groups Vitis rotundifolia, Vitis Munsoniana, and Vitis Popenoei. When I was young a few wild grape vines in this group, that locals called Muscadines, grew on some of my father's property. There were only a few large grapes on each bunch, and the grapes were rather sweet and had a completely different taste from the Vitis labrusca group grape, the Concord. Some used this grape to make jelly and jam. I believe it sometimes was made into a sweet home-made wine, but I never tasted this.

Mi e' parso che Dan The Man abbia scritto:

More than probable, i'd say. BTW - Vidal icewine is absolutely outstanding!

I warned the 30 people tasting it to hold their nose, but in fact most said that while it was peculiar it was not more shocking than some bottles of muscat, a little cloying and certainly not a good wine, but not as bad as expected...

I also warned them that this opinion alone, if expressed in the area of production, could result in serious injury...

That's it, that's what we drank, Scuppernong, made from Rotundifolia, it is indeed a Muscadine.