Insanity of the wine industry

Apr 04, 2004 338 Replies

Vincent,

In 5 days, you have sent 60, yes SIXTY posts, most of which are badly spelled, badly written, inconsequential and abusive. Those that haven't been whining, self justifying, ill spelt and badly written that is.

le/on Thu, 08 Apr 2004 14:14:49 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

alcohol wines.

So we're getting somewhere. You work for a winery in California (probably the central valley) and are responsible for several million bottles a year. You feel that wine snobs (whom you define as people who think they know more about wine than they do) think they know more about wine than they do. You define what your winery is doing as "the trend" in California, and then argue from a very small and insignificant particular (in terms of quality wine making) to the general as if it were accepted practice throughout the rest of the world.

You can't make up your mind whether you're arguing about sulphur dioxide in wine or added acid. When challenged on one, you say the other is more important. I have answered very clearly, your allegation about what french winemakers say about SO2. ALL (bar one) I've ever visited (and that is well into 3 figures for the ones whose estates I've been to) or spoken to in shows etc another set of WELL into 3 figures, are completely open about their use of sulphur dioxide or sulphites. It simply isn't an issue for them, so why should they seek to hide it?

As for acidity in very ripe grapes, I've given you specfic information over which areas in Europe have wines with both high residual sugar content AND adequate acidity. No, I can't give you some grape juice to analyse, because its the wrong time of the year. But in many parts of Europe, analysis is compulsory throughout the process, and in some areas acidification is illegal except by special dispensation. But YOU know better because your californian grapes (probably grown with irrigation in the Central valley) don't have much natural acidity when fully ripened. And you presume to tell ME that this means winemakers are lying to me.

That's Riesling, by the way.

Do you? How do you know?

Oh gee, wow, I never knew that. (sigh... )

Try a Wehelener Sonnenuhr Auslese from a year like 2001 from Dr Loosen or JJ Prum, and you'll find out. Try an Ockfener Bockstein Spätlese from a poor year and you'll see what natural acidity is all about. You'll also understand why in that part of Germany the debate is about whether and when to add sugar, rather than acid.

You're at least admitting that you're making assumptions. And they're entirely wrong. You see, these wines are not made with irrigation, many are made from grapes planted on hilsides so steep that all work has to be done by hand. The conditions are so marginal for the vine that some years the grapes barely ripen at all, and the yield is tiny by Californian standards. The Riesling under these conditions gives wines with VERY high natural acidity, and even when they ripen fully, this acidity remains. There's SO much tartaric acid in many of them, that when chilled suddenly, the tartrates deposit out as crystals. Didn't you know any of this? Because if you didn't, your initial criticism of wine snobs as being ignorant is extremely ill placed, it seems to me.

Have you heard of Botrytis cinerea? Did you know that in some circumstances it can be beneficial, and give must with initial sugar content of over

700gms per litre, god alone KNOWS what that would be in Brix. AND with sufficient initial acidity to give a balanced wine that (on the few occasions I've been privileged to taste it) has left me speechless with wonder.

Have you made wine from the Chenin grape? That's another grape which when grown in the right place, has a huge natural acidity EVEN when very ripe. But it's possible that when made in Californian sunshine and irrigation at huge yields you can't perhaps. I don't know. I'm not really very interested in wines made under such conditions. (which no doubt makes me a wine snob - so be it). But the problem then isn't so much that you CAN'T get the acidity, but that in the conditions under which _you_ grow _your_ grapes you can't.

You stop behaving like a troll, and I'll stop calling you one.

In the meantime, you've entirely exhausted my patience and have earned your way into my kill file. If and when others tell me you've learnt how to behave, you may be allowed out. So, don't bother to reply. I won't read it.

Lieber Herr Pronay - das ist wohl disgusting?

Cheers

Nils Gustaf

"Mike Tommasi" skrev i meddelandet news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

Take it from me, them´s really really good pig based products - we ahd the last of one of those hams last summer - delicious ...

Nils Gustaf

"Ewan McNay" skrev i meddelandet news:c53l01$ruo$ snipped-for-privacy@news.wss.yale.edu...

I don´t know if you could get him to do that - I recently tried to find a reason for him to visit Sweden (was talking to my Asst Prof and all) but no go .. to quote Jacki Chan: falling out of helicopter not difficult. Finding _leason_ for falling out of helicopter, very difficult.

Cheers

Nils Gustaf

Salut/Hi Tom S,

le/on Thu, 8 Apr 2004 12:58:04 -0700, tu disais/you said:-

Yup.

And the hands are fascinating, if you're into the delights of the outer reaches of the improbable.

As for the hexagon squeeze, it is defined as a double guard squeeze in which each of the three menaces is protected by _both_ opponents.

In the example given, South leads the A of clubs and West must discard the spade. North discards a diamond and East is squeezed in three suits. Once West discards his spade, East is caught in a standard guard squeeze.

North S Q H A J D x C -

WEST EAST S K S A H Kx H Q D Q D Kx C - C -

South S - H x D A J C A

Talking of the HH, I should say that my Granny, a very innocent lady born in the Victorian Era to a _highly_ respectable evangelical family annouced with great pride when she married. "There!!! I'm no longer a Hogg, I'm a Hoare."

Mike,

Im not disputing the fact that it is possible to harvest at 36 brix,, such as an "ice wine". But if you ferment a juice at 36brix you will end up with a very sweet wine in upwards of 7% residual sugar (the chemist in this forum can come up with the exact percentage better than I can).

I didnt think we were talking about dessert wines or ice wines.

high alcohol wines.

I love the generalities. Feel free to be more specific so I know what you are talking about.

?I have answered very clearly, your allegation about what french

Are you French. If you read what I posted you will see that I claimed the French tell "AMERICAN" tourist that they dont use sulfites. I dont care what the French tell the French,, I am concerned about the French misleading American tourist by claiming their wines are superior because they dont contain sulfites. I havent seen you comment on this. You can hoot and hollar all you want about what the French tell you. I am telling YOU that dozens of people that I enteract with have told me about this French misrepresentation. Choose not to believe me if you want,, I dont give a damn. I am simply telling you my experience.

I dont make California wines,, but i do have experience with them. Nice try.

This is where your elitism shines. I make wine for a living. I dont think you do (might be wrong) but you havent told me that you do. You would have to assume that since this is my profession,, I would know this. If you know differently,, please explain. I have asked this from someone over and over. I believe there is a chemist in these forums that can explain this better than I can and the gent named Tom seems to be an informed winemaker,, may be he can elaborate. But you insulting me and claiming I dont know what I am talking about because I am an "American",, only makes you look like a snoot.

sarcasim,,, it doesnt help in civilized conversations. I dont know if you are being sincere.

That is your first attempt at explaining your view point with specifics. I applaud you. Woohoo,, a real conversation. I wasnt sure if we were capable of that here!!!!!!

As in a previous post I have made the assumption.( but have not said it for fear of you calling me a troll for saying something controversial) It is possible to reach these numbers but it is only possible if the grapes are harvested under-ripe and alot of sugar is added to the must.

If the grapes are not picked early, I still stand by my assumption that acid needs to be added in order to make a good, stable wine. Dont take my word for it,, ask the chemist. If you know how it can be done. PLEASE!!!!!,,,, TELL ME.

Damn,, you are still insulting me. All wines parcipitate tartrates when reduced to low temperatures for a specific period of time; even over ripe california fruit. It is called cold stabilization. Tartrate parcipitation is no indicator of how much acid is in the wine. On top of that, if you are cold stabilizing these wines,, which we can assume are above 3.6 PH (if no sugar is added) the PH rises during cold stabilization, thus making the wine more unstable. Did you know about the 3.6 cold stabilization factor?

circumstances

Know about it? LOL, I was friggin wearing it last summer. :) I have had some good botrytisized (spelling?) wines but the infection needs to be controlled and under optimal conditions for it to add a benefit.

.

I'l agree to disagree on that point. I have seen no evidence to convince me that a Chenin harvested at a high brix holds TA "significantly" more than any other grape. Once again,, If you are claiming sugar is added and the fruit is harvested early I am not disputing the grapes would have a high TA.

Proof of the open mind. Ask me questions and then kill file me so you cant hear the answers. How strange.

Well it seems like Ian and you guys have a disagreement that needs to be worked out. Keep me out of it and let me know your conclusions.

I have asked chemists and experienced winemakers about this and their unanimous answer is that it is an uwarranted generalization. This does not preclude "acidity adjustments" from time to time. Whether this is good, bad, or indifferent, is not the issue here. Your absolutisms are. I have been in this business long enough to know to avoid the use of absolutes such as "always", "never", etc.

Vino To reply, add "x" between letters and numbers of e-mail address.

Vincent,

I am writing this very slow, because I now know that you are very slow on the uptake.

In your very first post, you wrote thus..

"anyone who has a beginners knowledge of winemaking knows that acid additions are currently practiced by just about (every) wine producing nation in the world"

Since then, you have been told in no uncertain terms that this is simply not so in Germany, Austria, much of France, New Zealand and Tokaji.

As to your latest gem...

You are a clown - the aforementioned Hoare, Pronay et al are in total agreement - tis you who cannot remember from which side you are arguing.

And do you take any notice whatsoever of other posters statements of ct - No!

Because then you would have to admit that, in reality, your experience is very limited, to a small area within the US; where life is beautiful all the time, and the sun beats down, and grapes ripen overnight and acid levels diminish so that you boost them artificially - and there you sit, festering like an ingrown toenail thinking that the whole winemaking world is the same.

Well, it ain't - as so many of your own countrymen have tried to explain.

Get a life - get off your ass and go see the real wine-world - you will then realise that you actually know 2/5 of 5/8 of bugger all!!!!!

Oh I forgot, you are the only person who has ever had a conversation with an honest French winemaker aren't you?

Hohohohohohohohohohohoho!

Oops - sorry - it's Easter isn't it!

Time to start casseroling that bunny!

I am reluctant to seemingly come in to defend someone whom I have been criticizing in earlier posts for unwarranted generalizations, and that is not my intent here. But your posting raises as many questions to me as it answers. I am by no means an expert on the regions you mention. I admit that freely and please consider my concerns in that light.

My sense is that in Germany, Austria, New Zealand, and Tokaji, "acidity adjustments" are rarely, if ever, required. But can you state categorically that they never take place under any circumstances? You use the term "much of France", suggesting that "acidity adjustments" DO take place in certain places in certain years and under certain circumstances there.

You have left out all of North America, Spain, Italy, and (with the sole exception of New Zealand) all of the Southern Hemisphere.

What am I to make of this?

Vino To reply, add "x" between letters and numbers of e-mail address.

PLEASE!!!!!,,,,

When asking them did you include my full assumption oe just this snip?

I agree with you 100%. I never said anything about absolute. Its the people who are refuting me that claim "acid additions are absolutely never done in Germany or France". Their absolutism is astonishing.

"Vincent Vega" wrote in news:mZkdc.3749$ snipped-for-privacy@nwrdny02.gnilink.net:

Actually what you said was that must at 26 Brix always needs acid correction.

hel,

Do you have releveant to the discussion to add or are you simply here to insult and troll me? All you do is say how little I know when I havent heard you say anything relevent to the drop in TA as grapes rippen.

Your are truely a pathetic creature. If you actually read anything I posted you would know that I dont work in Cali and I grow in a region that has plenty of mold.

You are a troll.

generally speaking, YES. (unless, of course, the juice is concentrated)

I never said always (dont think) but I have yet to comprehend how a balanced, stable wine can be produced without additions. Im begging you people to explain how this can be done but all i get is insults from trolls like st. helier.

I did not ask them specifically with respect to your statement. What I posted was information gleaned from numerous conversations with both groups of professionals that have taken place over a long period of time before you ever started this thread.

If I had asked them for a specific reponse to the "snip" quoted above, what more should I have asked them? In other words, what was your "full assumption"?

Vino To reply, add "x" between letters and numbers of e-mail address.

Vino,, I am not sure if you are aware but the second part of the quote is not mine. You should direct the question to who made the comment. I have no clue what you are to make of it.

My posting was a response to st. helier, who quoted one of your earlier posts. Both that quote and his response to it were included in my posting. I know it gets complicated, but my mail reader does a pretty good job of sorting such things out.

Vino To reply, add "x" between letters and numbers of e-mail address.

Try this: and thank you for your curiousity. Please let me know their response.

Let me ask you this. A Rielsing is 13% alcohol and has a residual sugar of

2%. That means the grape needed to be harvested above 25-26 brix, to get these numbers. And in Germany, Im assuming the grapes had to hang a really long time to get this high so you know the PH is through the roof. We all know that sugar masks acidity. Therefore a wine with with residual sugar will taste less acidic. How is it possible to have a well balanced wine that is sweet,, with no acidity? And, lol, on top of that,, you have the wine bottled with a high PH, no sulfite added, no potassium sorbate, with residual sugar for yeast and bacteria to feast on.

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