Insanity of the wine industry

Why don't you tell him what you really think of him?

That appears to be a compliment if you really do know as much about wines of the world as you have claimed here.

By posting this, you are sort of asking the question yourself. We'll see what responses you get.

I haven't "seen" any of them if I interpret this word literally. I have only read what many of them have written. But seriously (or as "serious" as one can be in replying to one of your posts), "understand[ing] winemaking" is not a "you do or you don't" proposition. I have never heard of anyone who claimed to know everything there is to know about winemaking, although some of your postings have come very close.

You're saying that you have a sense of humor? It sure hasn't been evident until now.

The main problem with this thread is that too many people have taken YOU seriously. I'll be the first to admit my own complicity.

Vino

To reply, add "x" between letters and numbers of e-mail address.

Boy, I sure hope I'm not going to regret this. In any event, I promise to add absolutely _no_ further discussion anywhere in this thread.

Vincent

I have to rewrite this, as my computer crashed as I attempted my response over the weekend.

As is stated in Michael Pronay's posting, the off dry German Kabinetts and Spatlesen have brix from 16 to 22. They also have alcohol levels below 10%. This seems to jibe with the figures you are stating, and are certainly less than the 26 brix you say will cause problems with low acidity. If you consider them underripe, I guess that's a matter of opinion.

The WA state off dry Rieslings are usually higher alcohol (if their labels are to be believed), such as 12%. If residual sugar were 2%, that would correspond to 26 brix, according to your figures. There is no question that their final product, even after the likely addition of acidity, is much lower acid than the equivalent product from Germany.

As for the assertion by others that the late harvest German Rieslings (Auslese or higher) would retain high natural acidity, this seems to conflict with what you are stating. These wines would have must sugar levels of above 26 brix, although they often have alcohol levels of 10% or less. Again, fermentation would be stopped to make a sweet wine. (I realize that some late harvest wines would still be sweet if the fermentation were not stopped, but that's a different issue.)

So, I think I've resolved in my mind some of the issues concerning high acidity of some European wines.

Thanks for your discussion about winemaking.

Tom Schellberg

Yes, VV certainly gets under ones skin, doesn't he/she!!!!

I killfiled the jerk - but, his ramblings still gets through via replies etc.

Despite his trying to remain anonymous, he does connect via the ISP Verizon, which is based in Virginia; New Jersey, and Maryland so I guess that *if* he does grow grapes and make wine in is in this corner of the US

I still think that he is a legend in his own mind because he claims to have

The largest winery in Virginia is Williamsburg Winery which make about 70k cases per year (that is, by my reckoning 165k US gallons).

Another of the larger producers is Barboursville which make about 95k US gallons.

I can only conclude that, perhaps VV makes ALL the wine in VA.

Because I had a little time on my hands (with SWMBO away for the night) I did a little research about grapegrowing and winemaking in that region.

Very interesting reading was found, compliments of Virginia Tech at

You recall how VV seems to have this fixation about grapes being harvested at 26 brix.

Well, that sort of ripeness is very rare in VA - and TA figures seem to suggest that acidification would seldom, if ever, be required.

So, read whatever you like onto the above - I personally think that VV is suffering from an acute case of imaginitis.

Those are three _totally_ different ways of concentrating grape juice. Botrytis changes the basic flavor of the juice, adding that honey-like characteristic. Grape concentrates are usually made either by evaporation of much of the water or reverse osmosis. Ice wine (Eiswein) is made from frozen grapes that are pressed while still frozen, causing much of the water to be left behind in the press, thus concentrating that which remains.

Besides for

Unfortunately.

Tom S

It seems you are quoting two different discussions. I would be happy to change my original statement to:

"The only problem is that anyone who has a beginners knowledge of winemaking knows that acid additions are currently practiced by MOST wine producing nation in the world,, even if they don't tell you. (and except for dessert wines made in Germany)"

Does that help?

I have been shown NO EVIDENCE. I was shown some .pdf of german musts and I was shown some number for concentrated juices. When I stated that there is a difference between "ripe fruit" and these things, I was laughed at (it doesnt seem that many people here can comprehend the difference). Even without evidence,, I am happy to adjust my original statement,, as I did. I am not sure what your problem with me is. I am just curious and would really love to see these grapes that RIPPEN to 26 brix and 1.2TA. Like you,, people try to put words in my mouth. You quote me as saying "your initial statement (that everyone adds acid) " I never said EVERYONE adds acid. How do you expect someone to take you seriously when you misrepresent the conversation.?

What particulars would you like to know. I never claimed to be an expert in wines of the world.

troll seems to be a person who disagrees with the majority.

Agreed. I dont see a controversy.

Either that,, or they are fortified with sugar. Agreed.

fermentation

But I think we have concluded that these are concentrated wines,, so they really are not relevent to the conversation. But I agree.

Thank you for your discussion. It is ashame that others can not have a logical rationaly conversation as we just did.

You're correct about Verizon, Dick, but the IP address does locate his computer in the Delaware Valley region of NJ, quite close to Philadelphia. He could easily be a winemaker in either S. Jersey or Bucks County, PA, but I have no idea if any of the wineries in those regions is as big as he implies in his statements, nor in the end do I care enough to investigate.

Mark Lipton

OT-how do you do that?

I guess if Vincent would just quit playing "cat and mouse" and tell us where his base of experience is it would be much easier to respond to his message. I guess I have a problem with the broad brush in which he paints the issue of acidification and the implication of fraud. Over the years I have found this to be a very well informed serious group and quite inclusive rather than exclusive. Bi!!

Why do you question the accuracy of the percent alcohol printed on the label of a WA riesling? That information is required by law and, within a certain tolerance, must be accurate. And it's not like some procedure that is prohibited by law but that can be done in the dead of night with no evidence left behind to tell the tale. All that would be necessary to prove the label inaccurate would be for someone to purchase a bottle and have it tested.

I won't argue that acidity adjustments NEVER take place, but what evidence do you have that they are "likely"?

I question the use of the term "equivalent product" here. The following link will take you to a spec sheet for a particular WA riesling. What would you call the "equivalent" German product?

Don't want to start an argument. Would just like some clarification of your earlier comments.

Vino To reply, add "x" between letters and numbers of e-mail address.

Vincent where do/did you make your wines and what company do/did you work for.

George Cox

How is that relevant to the conversation? What is the conversation? Can anyone even quote what I said that is so controversial?

Ok, that one got you killfiled. Bi!!

OK, now are you all convinced that this thread must be dropped and that this guy is a troll and has managed to occupy half the newsgroup's bandwidth with his obnoxious drivel ?

Damn, I said I would not respond

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France email link

Didnt think so. You people are so busy shooting the messenger,, you have forgotten what the message was. How pathetic.