Insanity of the wine industry

No need for a chemist, the answer is quite simple: grape variety in general, and especially riesling when we talk about Germany.

M.

thanks. I see what you did and found the header.

Vino

I'm not going to quote this last post, as this whole discussion is getting a little hard to follow. I was just trying to clarify Vincent's position.

I certainly never questioned the alcohol levels on any bottle of wine (WA or otherwise). I was merely citing my source of that information, as I have no inside information about the WA wine industry. I have observed that off dry Rieslings from Washington have higher alcohol levels (12%) than the "equivalent" product from Germany, where the wines range, according to labels, from 7.5 to 11%. Again, I accept these figures as correct. By "equivalent", I was attempting to compare off dry Riesling from Washington with those from Germany, and remind (Is that the correct word?) Vincent of the differences that might account for the different acidities. Clearly, the WA and German wines are very different.

Unfortunately, Vincent tends to jump around and become defensive, without trying to zero in on the meat of the matter. I think he is suggesting that concentrated must, either due to the freezing of the grapes or due to botrytis, would not lose acidity as the sugar levels rise, as would a "naturally ripening" grape. This is actually an interesting question.

I'm happy to clarify my points. I just wish Vincent were a little less defensive, so that we get to the correct science, without the back and forth attacks (which, I believe, Vincent has largely precipitated).

Tom Schellberg

Vincent

I may be reading these posts out of order. First, I don't think there would be two different reading for sugar levels if we are talking about botrytized wines. The grapes are already partially dessicated when picked, due to the action of mold. So this seems to explain why many late harvest German wines would have high sugar and high acidity.

But botrytis is not universal in these wines, and the plot thickens. Michael Pronay says it's the grape, but I don't have the chemisty background to support or to refute this

Tom Schellberg

"equivalent", I

are you directing your question to me? if so, i will respond about acidity levels in botrytisized wines/ icewines/ concentrated wine vs. typical dinner wines.

As a grapes mature and rippen,, (i think i said this all before somewhere in this tread) sugar levels increases, ph increases and TA is reduced along with acids becomming limited to primarily tartaric. Lets say a Cabernet grape from California matures something like this:

stage 1: TA2.0 - PH2.4 - Brix12 stage 2: TA .9 - PH3.6 - Brix20 stage 3: TA .5 - PH3.5 - Brix22 stage 4: TA .2 - PH4.3 - Brix27

Figure that about stage 4, the grapes start dehydrating. Another few weeks of hanging, you pretty much have raisins. Of course,, these numbers change according to grape variety and climate. Some here are accusing me of disputing this fact; I am not. However: I am defending the FACT that "As a grape matures and rippen,, sugar levels increases, ph increases and TA is reduced" To the best of my knowledge I have never seen any evidence to the contrary nor has any been presented here.

If a grape is harvested at stage 3 you will end up with relatively stable wine. Ice wines and similiar items are made when these grapes are frozen / then thawed and pressed. Sugar and other compounds thaw before water. As the sugar thaws and drops, it is collected. Sugar concentrtion could start really high (50-76brix). When the water/ice starts thawing the brix goes down. At a certain point the process is stopped and the remaining ice is discarded.

The dehydration of juice can also be done on the vine. Boytrits, in some circumstances, can attack a grape cluster and dehydrate the fruit,, causing a concentration of sugar and other compounds.

Dehydration can also be accomplished by (my favorite) advanced concentration machinery. There are some pretty neat pieces of equipment on the market.

All different degrees of concentration can be accomplished and they vary.

NOw... I am assuming from things I have learned in this thread,, that most German wines are harvested around stage 2 then concentrated, or,,, concentrated than harvested around stage 2, by one of the methods descibed above.

During concentration water is removed therefore Brix and TA increase,, PH will stay about even. So a german wine could end up being .9TA - PH3.6 -

ON the other hand,,, If the grapes were left to mature on the vine they will continue to increase in sugar, acididty will be reduced ,and the PH will increase.

I hope this was helpful.

Vincent

Not sure I understand you correctly.

I explained in my other posts how dehydration is achieved by other methods

hmmm,,, Yes,, different grape varieties mature to different level but I have never heard of a grape that will mature to 35+ brix without becoming a raisin. If there is such a grape, I know people who will pay big money for it. Let me know where I can get some cuttings.

I think you've set yourself an impossible task, but I wish you the best of luck.

As I've indicated in earlier posts, I clearly have a special place in my heart for Columbia Valley rieslings. This doesn't mean that I can't appreciate (and like) rieslings from Germany, Alsace, the Finger Lakes area, and hell, even some areas of Australia. But I'm tired of hearing CV rieslings being dismissed because "they aren't like German rieslings". They're not intended to be like German rieslings. Whether one likes them or not is beside the point. I just wish people would stop comparing them with standards they were never intended to correspond to.

Right on!

It is. At some point, the physiological processes that occur in ripening (or over-ripening) grapes stop. If, after that, the only thing that happens is removal of water, i.e dehydration, then TA should not decrease, although sugar concentration will increase. My sense is that, with ice wine, these processes have stopped. With botrytis infected grapes, I don't know.

I agree completely.

Vino To reply, add "x" between letters and numbers of e-mail address.

I find those numbers a bit out of line with my experience. Perhaps that's Central Valley fruit. For Napa Valley Cabernet I'd say this is a little more reasonable:

stage 1: TA2.0 - PH2.4 - Brix12 stage 2: TA 1.1 - PH3.1 - Brix19 stage 3: TA .8 - PH3.5 - Brix22 stage 4: TA .5 - PH3.8 - Brix24

At 24° Brix, the pH is a bit out of line, but a light addition of tartaric acid easily fixes that problem. Still, I've seen wines that were made with these starting numbers that tasted remarkably nice.

And none will be. What you have attested to in that respect is a simple fact of biochemistry: As sugar goes up during the maturation of the fruit, acidity drops - causing a corresponding rise in the pH.

What you have overlooked is that the fact of growing in a cooler climate skews the numbers in such a way that as the fruit ripens (not "rippens", BTW) and the sugar increases, the acid doesn't drop (nor does the pH rise) as rapidly as in warmer climates.

This is the part you don't seem to GET. In years when the weather is favorable (no early rains), German grapes can ripen to substantial Brix _without_ losing their acidity. There is no need for concentrators or any such manmade intervention. The cooler growing climate tends to sustain the acidity in the fruit, while allowing the sugar to rise during the longer days closer to the polar region.

That's what happens in general worldwide, but the _rates_ at which those three things simultaneously occur is _greatly_ influenced by the average temperature and the length of the day during the growing season. If you don't believe it, brush up on your German and go to Mosel for the Oktoberfest and a little wine touring.

Then come back here and apologize for shooting your mouth off without knowing what you're talking about, and irritating the hell out of the rest of us who DO!

Tom S

Tom, Did you read my entire post or did you not pay attention to detail?

"Lets say a Cabernet grape from California matures something like this"

I was not stating a fact,, I was giving a scenario in order to make explain the process. I made this very clear. I am not sure why you are knit picking.

"Of course,, these numbers change according to grape variety and climate"

Did you not see this statement? I specifically said this because I knew there was going to be someone in this forum just looking to jump down my throat.

umm,, that is what he asked for. I was explaining fact. You can redicule me or you can answer Tom Schellberg's questions.

"Of course,, these numbers change according to grape variety and climate"

Overlooked? I think you overlooked my post. You are restating exactly what I said while trying to make me look wrong.

Specifically, what "dont I seem to GET"? What is substantial Brix? Over 35 as someone had suggested earlier?

""Of course,, these numbers change according to grape variety and climate" You are preaching to the choir. I dont see the point you are trying to make.

I think you are the one who should be appoligizing.

Hey, y'all, there is something singular here. An achievement in teasing out the most reponses I can recall in some interval of live reading and archives on wine. Especially, the most responses in one thread, that promised to be "the last thing I am going to post on this thread," or similar words. (Credit where due!)

"Mike Tommasi" in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

Botrytis makes the skin permeable. This leads to evaporation of volatile components, including water and acidity. But the water evaporation rate being far superior to the rate of aciditiy, acidity content goes up, not down.

M.

I read the entire post and responded to detail _in_ detail.

I may be nit picking, but that's what we do here sometimes when it becomes necessary to clear up a misunderstanding or misconception.

Yes, I saw that. Apparently, based on your previous posts, you don't believe that varietal and especially climate can have such a dramatic effect on the progression of fruit maturity. You seem to believe it impossible for grapes to ripen to 24°+ Brix while retaining TA of 10g/l, e.g. I am telling you that I have worked with such fruit myself, grown here in California in a Region 1 area (Santa Maria).

I was merely expanding on what you'd said to make it clearer. As for trying to make you look wrong, I don't need to help you in that regard. You seem to be doing quite well all on your own.

How about 26° or more, as you suggested yourself?

I'd bet the majority here - even those who don't like me very much - would disagree with that. Care to poll them? If they agree with you I'll offer you my most profuse apologies.

Tom S

Come on now Tom S....who dislikes you :-)

What misconception? What misunderstanding? Sounds like you are filabustering. You did nothing but repeat what I already said. What am I wrong about? Get off your elitist pedistal and stop claiming I dont know what I am talking about when you seem to agree with everything I am saying.

Salut/Hi Tom S,

le/on Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:21:39 -0700, tu disais/you said:-

Give it up, Tom, the guy's a contumaceous pillock. By quoting all his drivelling disputatious crap, you merely make it harder for those who've long put him in our killfile to avoid him.

He WILL not read what's written, he WILL not listen to a word anyone says except to bloody argue the whole time. Let it drop, life's TOO damn short.

Don't bother. Even the most patient here (I am not amongst them) has given up.

Thanks for your reply Vino.

I was not trying to suggest that WA rieslings are better, worse or the same as those from Germany. I was merely suggesting that a given grape grown in different climatic conditions can give much different results re acidity, alcohol content etc. That is really what this dicussion is all about, and why I wanted to emphasise that point in my post.

Tom Schellberg

Sorry to go back so far to a thread that had (mercifully) petered out, but I just read a reply (sent by e-mail; I won't go into why I was so late reading it) to the question I posed about the source of the above data on sulfide concentrations. It is

As I read the chart used for the data, it refers to typical sensory thresholds for the listed compounds, NOT typical amounts actually found in wine. The earlier interpretation simply did not make sense to me and probably didn't to others as well.

Vino To reply, add "x" between letters and numbers of e-mail address.

Note also that the figures on the chart are "ppb" (parts per billion), not ppm, as th original poster indicated. That was a major reason for my skepticism.

Vino To reply, add "x" between letters and numbers of e-mail address.