Insanity of the wine industry

"your comment" "my head" but French thinking never made much sense to me. If it did, we would all be speaking German .

Vincent, like I said in earlier post I am simply a wine enthusiast of 25 years. My first real experience of wine was in honeymoon in France and my wife and I visited Bordeaux.

You are sharing interesting information and I don't mind that your posts are somewhat inflammatory. This thread is long and the subject is interesting regardless of the manner in which you choose to post.

But I wanted to ask with your wine producing knowledge...where are you located and are you in the wine making bussiness or were you?

I have no knowledge of winemaking. I do enjoy wine however.

Please advise.

Thanks.

Dick

Thanks for your comment. I dont try to be inflamitory but I have no patience for people who cant handle a diversity of opinion. Although I grew up in a winemaking and wine drinkng family I also became a wine enthusiast in France when I enjoyed a $3.00 bordeaux that left a significant impression. I am still trying to find a wine that tastes the way that one did. Not sure if it was the wine, the atmosphere or my young tastes.

As for where I am and what I do,, I would generalize and say that I am in the USA and have made my share of wine. If I have insulted my patrons I would prefer that they not know who I am:) I am however, as brutally honest with my customers as i am here in the forum and I believe that they appreciate the honesty. I believe this trend of "wine snobbery" is bad for the industry. Again,, I dont claim to be an "expert" on wines of the world nor do I claim to have an exceptional nose for wine. I would say that my nose and tastes are typical of the average wine consumer.

The concentration of SO2 needed to kill most microorganisms is typically estimated to be ~200 mg/L (aka 200 ppm), which is not a truly massive concentration. So now I understand you to be saying that sulfites are not typically used in concetrations sufficient to kill microorganisms. However, that will depend on the pH, the type of microorganism present and what other antimicrobials are present (e.g., sorbate) and whether a sterile filtration is performed. Additionally, SO2 and metabisulfite are used at various points in the winemaking process: to prevent secondary fermentation and as a dosage during racking and bottling. In the case of sweet wines, I think that it's safe to say that the sulfites are indeed used to sterilize the wine, else we'd see secondary fermentation in any sweet wine that we tried to age. I'd suspect that even dry red wines are truly sterile by the time they're bottled, but whether the SO2 is the principal agent used to sterilize them is perhaps debatable.

No hostility. But compare your current, nuanced position to your earlier statement ("DOES NOT STERILIZE"). I labeled that earlier categorical statement nonsense because it is: SO2 can sterilize and is used to do so in a variety of applications. Whether it does so in all cases is another question altogether.

Mark Lipton

Like Ian earlier, this will be my last posting (and last download) in this thread because of the nasty turn that it has taken. This is entirely the responsibility of one very arrogant poster who has made some very stupid and uninformed statements. But I am responding to this one.

First of all, "Websters" (or, more accurately, "Webster's", the possessive case) is a generic term. In other words, anyone can publish a dictionary and call it a "Webster's". So neither I nor anyone else here has any idea what dictionary you are referring to.

Secondly, all of us "wine snobs" who post here do truly believe that true "Champagne" can only be made in and from grapes grown in the Champagne region of France. Sparkling wine, of which Champagne is an example, can be made anywhere. It can even be made anywhere by the same method used to make Champagne. In the US we can even label it "Methode Champenoise". In the EU I understand that this term is not allowed (except in Champagne, of course) and the term "Methode Traditionelle" must be used.

As I said earlier, this thread has been poisoned and this will be my last contribution to it.

Vino To reply, add "x" between letters and numbers of e-mail address.

'Rancunious?

Yep, them damned rancoons are always digging up my edging stones in the garden

- causing untold cooncern, coonsternation and coonfusion.

But I have to ask, Ian - can you supply a definition for this novel word, or was it a typo for 'rancourous'?

Biondi Santi is highly over-rated and rides on the past glory of having been first to produce Brunello. This is always reflected in the price but seldom in the quality of the wine.

It's franglais, you get to use it without realising it, once you have spent a few years abroad... happens to me all the time...

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France email link

Mark,, I dont understand you. I keep agreeing with you and you reply that you disagree with me? When got on this topic about the use of sulfites sterilize equipment. Now you are talking about their use in wines. I am not disputing anything you just posted.

Of course we are. *plonk*

M.

You seems to have an extremely strange conception of what "all" means.

M.

Michael Pronay wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@pronay.com:

I don't see Ed Rasimus Osorry about the spelling) in that category, but if you use a big enough shotgun you are going to hit some pigeons. I'm proud to be with Mike on this one. ;-)

"Vincent Vega" generalised yet again.....

In your vast winemaking experience, where in the rest of the world???

Spain? Italy? Swaziland? Uzbekistan?

More generalising bullshit - if there is any trend at all, it would be away from over-oaked, over alcoholic wines to those with subtlety and elegance.

Again, your generalisation is laughable - what grape variety, grown where?

Ho ho ho ho - yes, I am awaiting with interest the forthcoming vintage from both Greenland and Chad!

IIRC, didn't B-S have a commanding lead (well, maybe neck and neck with Opus One) in the most overrated/overpriced wine thread a while back? Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

bugger bugger bugger bugger Salut/Hi Bill Spohn,

le/on 06 Apr 2004 17:29:30 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

bugger bugger bugger

bugger bugger bugger bugger bougre de brigand!

As Mike T points out it's Franglais. I typed it, looked at it, thought about it and couldn't work out what was wrong, 'cos the french word is "rancunier" so I send it!

I meant to write "rancorous" (and thanks very much for your kind gesture of a speeling mistook!) of course.

snipped-for-privacy@aol.comdamnspam (Dale Williams) wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@mb-m03.aol.com:

Biondi Santi.

about ten

glory of

reflected in the

and neck

a while

More than Far Niente? I thought that was pretty good hype wine.

Laughable? Why is this funny? Does TA increase as sugar rises in your parallel universe? What is your experience with growing grapes? Where do you grow grapes that this happens? I dont think you have a clue.

Here are the facts I gleamed from your post:

The book you read is a great read. (assertion)

At least 90% of wine drinkers are wine snobs. (An opinion) The qualifier "at least" qualifies this as an opinion.

Wine snobs really don't know much about wine. (Opinion) The word "really" qualifies this as an opinion. To what degree?

Wine snobs can't objectively evaluate a wine. (Transitive assertion. Therefore 9 out of 10 wine drinkers cannot evalutate a wine)

Wine makers make wine according to a high rated style. (An assertion) True in all cases?. Is this what you meant?

You are never influenced by writers. (An assertion)

A wine cannot be identified by region. (An assertion)

You are not a beginner. (Assertion)

Acidity does not determine where a wine is from. (Assertion)

Wine makers add ingredients. (Assertion)

Marketing is insane. (Assertion)

You will write a book. (Assertion)

So here is what I understand:

You read a great book.

90% of wine drinkers cannot evaluate a wine.

Winemakers make a wine that judges will like.

You never fall for this.

Climate does not influence a wine's style.

You drink alot of wine and know the difference between plonk and the good stuff.

Marketing is a bad thing.

You will write a book and explain your assertions.

Rich

Here is the full initial post you get when you bounce the post. A search of domains available for sale revealed that the mentioned vegaindustries.com is available. Posts contain much more infomation than appears on the board.

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From: "Vincent Vega" Newsgroups: alt.food.wine Subject: Insanity of the wine industry Lines: 49 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2004 17:29:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.150.245.72 X-Complaints-To: snipped-for-privacy@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny01.gnilink.net 1081099754 141.150.245.72 (Sun, 04 Apr

2004         13:29:14 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2004 13:29:14 EDT I just read the "Official Guide to Wine Snobbery" The book is a great read and reinforces my speculation about the wine industry and wine snobs. I have come to the conclusion that most (90% and above) wine snobs really don't know much about wine. These people simply repeat what it is they heard other people say about wine. Person "B" who knows little about wine could convince Person "A", who knows nothing about wine, that he/she is a wine expert. Person "C", who has a moderate knowledge of wine, could convince Person "B" that he/she is an expert on wine. Person "B", would then mimic what Person "C" says about wine and will pass this knowledge onto Person "A". Meanwhile, Person "C" knows that no matter what he says about wine (within reason), Persons "B" and "A" will eventually consider fact. With this type of persuasion Person "C" is free to say or make up anything he/she wants. Person "C" eventually gets a job as a wine judge or wine columnist while his subjectiveness permeates the industry and "winemakers" shake their head in confusion. The winemakers are left to face the fact that subjectiveness, copycatting and creative writing will dictate the industry. I never listen to wine TV shows and only read the wine spectator and such to keep up on industry trends. But I was flicking the channels the other day and I heard this wine connoisseur on the food network talking to a chef in California when she made the comment that "the Sauvignon Blanc they were drinking was clearly from the Northern Coast of California because it was high in acidity"   LOL ROFLMAO. Now I know someone watching that program is going to repeat that, the next time they drink a white from Northern Cali. And they will convince people that they know a lot about wines for making such an observant statement. And that statement will get passed meanwhile building the credentials of whoever repeats the line. The only problem is that anyone who has a beginners knowledge of winemaking knows that acid additions are currently practiced by just about wine producing nation in the world,, even if they don't tell you. The fact that a wine is high in acidity could not possibly indicate where it is from. A few grams per liter tartaric/citric addition to an over ripened Napa valley grape would produce the same effect. But who cares? All anyone is looking for is a new witty comment to make in order to impress people who know as little or less than themselves about wine. The more I am force to understand the marketing of this industry, the more I am convinced of its insanity. I think someday I will write a book that exposes the foolishness and symantics of the wine industry.

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