google group for grape growing

CC,

This is the only one I know.

Bob

snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

Check out the forums at

There is one on "Grape Growing and Vineyard Management"

Doug

Hey CC, I am also in San Diego and just planted my first vinifera last month. One syrah is already breaking bud!

I had trouble finding people to answer grape growing questions on this newsgroup or on the gardening newsgroups but I was given the advice to buy Jeff Cox's " From Vines to Wines," which will give you some basic information and has ideas for trellising systems etc...

You could try the county farm adviser but small vineyards don't seem to warrant much attention at that office and I was disappointed with the level of help or interest. If you don't live in Temeculah, you are basically on your own.

I would research sites from the wine growing regions of Northern California like UC Davis, or some of the commercial vineyard suppliers have some good information.

Most people here seem to buy their grape juice instead of growing it and are more concerned with the end product than the juice production.

I did get some good advice from a Ramona vinifera grower who posts here so if you have specific questions, he may chime in to help you.

What are you growing and where did you get your stock? I'm in Jamul and these are my first grapevines.

Hi - i am planting 75 mourvedre, 25 grenache and 25 counoise next month. my first vineyard. i am in alpine at 2400' with se exposure on a slope of decomposed granite. about 30 miles from the pacific ocean.

i am getting them from tablas vineyards through nova wines. i have several million questions about everything. the decomposed granite, amendments pruning and especially pests.

right now i am dealing with gophers and preparing to fence my space. i am four hundred yards from the national forest boundary, a national forest of sage and scrub that was incinerated in the cedar fires. no sign that the deer have returned but beside gophers there are racoons, opposums, rabbits and a sky full of birds.

jamul is beautiful. where did you get your syrah?

Coleman

Coleman, Several members of the San Diego Amateur Winemaking Society are experienced grape growers, and they love to talk about growing wine grapes. More info here

I got my stock from Bay Laurel Nursery. They have the common types on their own roots and are online at

My site is very similar to yours. 2700 ft. elevation, decomposed granite, south facing slope about 25 miles inland. God, I love it out here! I have had problems with gophers but found that a three foot high hardware cloth buried two feet deep with one foot above the soil line has worked so far. The rabbits are kept out by regular garden fencing. No deer problems here. We have lots of bobcats in the area and coyotes but they don't seem to bother anything.

I put up a homemade barn owl nestbox to control the gophers. There are many sites with online plans. I am not a big fan of poisoning the animals around here since they were here first. Gophers can get through chicken wire with no problem.

The other guy who answered you post, "LUM" gave me some great advice a few years back. He would be the guy to ask for advice. Happy growing!

did you amend the granite before planting? the local nurseries told me that DG is essentially sterile even alkaline and wouldn't support the vines. they also said to chicken wire each vine. did you hardware cloth each vine?

i will build the owl house. they are interesting birds. thanks for the information.

The area I planted in is at the top of the slope with about 30" of a gravelly topsoil before it hits the rocks and clay. According to the Jeff Cox book, you should have 36"-70" of topsoil before you hit any hardpan or solid rock since the grape roots don't go down much past that.

Wine grapes in general like "difficult" soil and seem to do best with infertile, slightly alkaline soil with lots of rocks for drainage. The goal here is not to grow lush, happy vines but to grow stressed vines which will cause smaller berry size and concentrated flavors. Your local nursery might have been refering to table grapes which need different conditions since you want large berries in that case.

I recently had the luxury of traveling to Southern France and some of the vineyards appeared to be planted in gravel with a little soil. I think your site sounds perfect for wine grapes as long as there is some moisture retentive material among the rocks. I would not add amendments unless you talk to a local vineyard owner and he/she says it is necessary. Local nurseries will not have enough expertise in this specific area.

According to the Jeff Cox book, you should prepare you planting area by digging a trench 3 feet deep by three feet wide just to loosen the soil. No amendments needed. Let the area sit over winter and plant in the spring. This is the ideal case but not feasible in some situations. I just dug holes about 2.5ft. deep and about 2 feet wide. The vines came about a week later and I was ready to go. I am just experimenting at this stage so don't follow my example. I would recommend you purchase some of the good books out there for more expert advice.

Yes, I put hardware cloth around each vine with about an 18 inch circumferance. I can guarantee you the chicken wire WILL NOT WORK! My nursery recommended the same thing to me and my garden lasted two seasons and then the gophers came and started working an area outside the fence. It took them about two weeks before they were able to push through the wire and then it was all over. No more garden. It is a lot of work to put wire down two feet deep and then have it last only two years. Hardware cloth is the answer. Talk to LUM on this one. He has a vineyard and can tell you what he has found to be a cost effective gopher deterrant. I only have 6 vines at present so this was an easy solution.

I can't stress enough how important it is for you to contact a local winegrape grower. I went to Temeculah, did some winetasting, and asked lots of questions to the owners. Since you are about to plant a significant number of vines, a proper start now will save you many headaches in the future. The link that LUM provided will put you in touch with the local experts and, perhaps, you could pay one of them to come to your site and give you advice?

One last word on gophers, they dig everywhere but they don't kill everything. Some of my perennials survived like iris and statice. It may be the case that gophers will dig around grapevines but not eat the roots of the grapes. Gophers typically stay in the top 8" of soil eating tender roots. Your grapes will root very deeply and have tough roots that may not be to the liking of gophers. Gophers will also aerate the soil and increase water penetration which will benefit the grapes. So I don't know how much we really need to worry about them. Only time will tell! Happy growing.

Not sure I agree with much here besides the gopher problem. Gophers don't seem to bother grapevines and the chicken wire is a lesson in futility. I'll challange anyone to show me land that had 36-70" of top soil. He might not know what top soil is. BTW, Nurseries are a GREAT place to learn how to grow plants, which contrary to some , grapevines are. Stressing vines is a practice only followed in an area where they have no problems with winter temps. Ask any grapevine nursery how much they stress their vines and I'm sure NONE will answer that they do. Young vines are stressed enough. They need to be given an environment to FLOURISH. Theoretically, you shouldn't be getting a crop for at least 2 years maybe 4 so make sure the first years are STRESS FREE. BTW, Jeff Cox's book , IMO, deals with viticulture for the WEST coast. His techniques are not practiced where the climate isn't as ideal as California. Yes, France stresses their vines but look at their winter temps! If you took the stressing "theory" and transfered it to Minnesota you'd end up with vineyard of dead vines.

Bob

hardpan or

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Bob, I don't think you caught the earlier part of this thread but we are both from Southern California in the same general vacinity, so Jeff Cox's book suits us just fine.

The comment about me not knowing what topsoil is... well that was just unnecessary. The 36"-70" number came directly from Cox's book, not my number. The property I live on is undeveloped, natural land that has had thousands of years of organic material built up on it. This is not a housing development where all the ground is scraped free of topsoil during the building process.

I still disagree with you about the stressed vines but agree with you that the first years should be stress free since you are attempting to get the plant off to a good start and don't care about the fruit at this point. Overly fertilized or overly watered winegrapevines will produce rampant growth at the expense of the fruit and the fruit will often contain higher levels of water than wanted for winemaking. Rampant growth also leads to mildew problems and bunch rot since the air flow becomes restricted in an overgrown vine.

Like I said in my earlier post, I encourage anyone to doublecheck my information with the experts. However, I don't believe that an average or even better-than-average nursery would have much experience with wine grapes and I don't recommend going down to your local Home Depot garden center with any great expectations of expert advice. Contact your local people like the farm adviser or master gardener association for specific information pertaining to your area.

Fig,

My comment about top soil was directed at Cox not you. I read your post and I saw that it said Cox said that. I think we're on the same page. Your post never really got into at what point in time you thought stressing the vines was good for the juice. All I was doing is making sure that anyone that read the thread wasn't misunderstanding how to START the vines. I'm totally for great wine but I think the average grower rushes things to the detriment of the vines. I think you'll find that rich clay like soil will cause more harm to vines than water. I personally have never noticed vines growing out of control on well drained soil. If the soil drains well I don't think you can over water them. The soil will never become waterlogged. Trust me, I know this for a fact. I have MULTIPLE varieties growing in my vineyard on very sandy soil and I water ALOT and NEVER had "vigor" problems or mildew problems. As far as stressing the vines the best advice I would give anyone is to not do it until AT LEAST the 5th year. I'm waiting until they reach their "peak" years before I start stressing them and that is

10 years. My w> Bob, I don't think you caught the earlier part of this thread but we are

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Forgot to comment on your nursery comment. I'm not talking Home Depot Garden Center , I'm talking people that grow plants for a living. ANY plant. I talked to the owner of a VERY reputable nursery owner in the Northeast about growing vines. His vines usually come with about 24 inches of roots on one year vines. I'm not going to mention any names but I think alot of people know who I'm talking about. In the conversation he basically said , and I'm paraphasing, that he does EXACTLY what most gardeners do to grow any other plant. Drained soil, drip irrigation, raised beds, mulch etc.... He also said a big vine is a healthy vine. At NO time did he mention stressing the vine. I think if you do some research, you'll find that some of the big wineries in Napa and Sonoma are abandoning their "scorched earth" policies of old and going more with an "organic" approach to growing. When I say organic I mean more natural stuff like mulch and grass middles, etc.... Even some of Winkler's book is outdated with it's principles of viticulture.

Bob

Thanks for the clarification.

My experience with my favorite VERY reputable nursery was different from yours. My nursery is run by master gardeners and is highly respected in San Diego, which you can probably guess, has some of the best nurseries in the country since we are major growers here. I tried to find information on rootstocks and specifics on gopher control and was given incorrect answers and unsuccessful referals, my farm adviser could not answer my questions either and appeared to be bothered by a homeowner asking questions, how dare I waste his time, and the master gardener hotline referred me to Northern California where most of the grapes are grown. San Diego is not a big wine producing area yet and it appears to be off the radar for most nurseries down here.

I have nothing but respect for nurserypeople and admire their breadth of knowledge but they deal mainly with ornamental horticulture. I will continue to advise people to go to the experts who actually own vineyards and have personal experience with grapevines and making wine.

Let me say again that I have no experience in growing wine grapes and you surely know more about this from experience, but Cox's assertions that smaller grapes contain a higher percentage of the flavor inducing skins makes a lot of sense to me. As an herb gardener, I know for a fact that stressing herbs creates a far superior product. If I overwater my sage, thyme, or rosemary, I am left with a product that is not much better than grass clippings at flavoring food. During a particularly drought stressed year, my crop will be so fragrant that I find people asking me "What's that wonderful smell" when I go out to socialize. The sage, in particular, seems to thrive on stress and will often die out earlier if watered like any other garden plant. There are many other examples of plants in horticulture that do not respond to the seemingly logical assumption that all plants do better with better care, regular water, and regular fertilizer. Lavender is another great example of this type of plant. Therefore, I would not recommend watering and fertilizing wine grapes, after they have reached maturity and you are trying to get quality fruit, the same way that you would care for a table grape vine.

I grew up in the northeast, New Jersey and Upstate New York-finger lakes region, and it took me many years to understand this Mediterranean climate. It is hard for people in cold, wet areas of the country to understand how plants grow out here. I am still in disbelief that the native scrub, oaks and manzanita go 6 months out of the year without a drop of water. Not one drop. Mediterranean crops are far more resilient that I thought possible and my definition of stress is probably somewhat different than yours. I do not ascribe to plant 'torture' or go around beating grapevines with a broom but the natural stressors of drought, intense sun, and lack of nutrients seem to be the equivalent of good care, adequate water, and fertilization for most other plants in other areas of the country.

Thanks for sharing you difference of opinion. I will try to make it more clear, in the future, that I am speaking from the perspective of a Mediterranean climate and what works for me may not work for others in different parts of the country.

Dear Figaro - Master Gardener programs are a wonderful asset for any community. But, unless one of the Master Gardeners at your nursery actually grows grapes and combats the various problems you have mentioned they are just quoting from a grape growing text. I know this first hand. My wife is a Johnson County, KS Master Gardener. Being part of the greater Kansas City area this organization is very large and has lots of expertise. But, also because we are in Kansas there is little knowledge about grape growing in the organization. My advice is to locate a commercial vineyard near your home. Go there and meet the growers. Make friends. Listen to how they deal with the problems you face. People who actually grow grapes for a living can be great mentors...I should know. One of the members of our KC Cellarmaster Club owns a vineyard and makes estate wines sold at his vineyard. He knows things that are only known by one who has done it for years and has made all the mistakes. Good luck.

Bill Frazier Olathe, Kansas USA

I agree completely, and this was exactly my advice to the original poster.

Why the hell are you guys even posting questions here if your gonna tell someone who's kind enough to respond that you know what to do???? Get a grip.

Bob

figaro wrote:

different from

respected in

Bill,

Stop trying to pat yourself on the back because you grow grapes. There is no mysterious secret to growing them and any "master gardener" should know WHERE TO GO to get the info. That's what makes people masters, not that they know everything but whether they know where to go and find out. Every problem I've ever had with grapes happen to ALOT of other plants. Nutrient defiecienies, fungus, crown gall, pests etc..... If I were to have taken your advise and went to the only vineyard in my area that grows commercially, my vines would be dead. Their vineyard is an abortion. Trust me , I know. I'd give it about 1 more year and EVERY vine is gonna be dead. So your advise while getting YOU off the hook doesn't really apply in ALL cicumstances. I'd trust my local plant people over the local commercial viticultrualist ANY TIME. I'm not afraid to give my opinion on my experiences growing grapes, which happen to be commercially and I 'm not one to give the cop out answer of "check with the locals who grow them". ANYONE could give that advise. I assume the posters here want OUR advise and OUR experiences else they would they be posting here in the first place. right?

Bob

BTW, figaro,

you annoyed me so much I just went through Cox's book and NO WHERE does he mention TOP soil being 30-70" deep. You do indeed have ALOT to learn.

Bob

"MASTER gardeners" are a GREAT source of information for grape growers. I'd recommend anyone interested in growing ANYTHING to talk to them. If they don't know anything about what you are doing they should know where to get the info. Masters need not know everything just how to find the right info on everything. If I used my "local" vineyard for advice on viticulture my vines would already be dead. Our local commercial vineyard is an abortion and I'd give it 1 more year and they'll have no crop at all. Their spray program, weed control and canopy management is non-existent. God forbid a newbie went there looking to use them as an example. Additonally, advising questioners to refer to their local vineyard does nothing to enhance this board. Thank God the great winemakers here don't refer me to my local winery for advice. I came HERE to get advice. I KNOW I can go to a winery and get advice. Sending people to their local vineyards and Cooperative extentions seems to be the "cool" answer around these parts but does nothing for exchanging info on how WE go about successfully growing OUR grapes . I for one am not afraid to share my POSITIVE experiences with new growers and winemakers. I will continue to make EXACT recommendations and not be pointing in several directions. If you don't agree with my recommendation fine but DON'T try and show me up. Where did your wife get her KC "master" gardeners license??? In a gumball machine?

Bob