OT: Laguna dining ripoff

Really? Not in my experience. Maybe it's an American thing, although, thinking back to my most recent visit (to New York, late last year) I don't remember being asked at The Gramercy Tavern, Ouest, Oceana (but fish doean't count), DB Bistro Moderne (Foie Gras Burger probably doesn't count either) Oh, well, perhaps not a good sample.

--brian

Ian, it might be possible that the wine menu starts with the lists of aperitifs to chose from. At least I have seen some.

M.

"Midlife" in news:BD36BEE2.5D63% snipped-for-privacy@cox.net...

I don't know if you folks are aware that you are discussing a famous US restaurant-industry trick-of-the-trade that plays expertly on diner psychology (exactly the dilemma that Midlife described). Usually found at high-priced but touristy establishments. Several years ago I got some (paid) advice on restaurant quirks from Mimi Sheraton, and she made a point of this gambit, which she called May-I-Recommend. It's considered most productive with hosts of large parties, she said. The server can put the host on the spot (the focus of attention shifts expectantly, like a spotlight, to the host) and many hosts will then play along in a magnanimous spirit (or else fear looking cheap). Specials and expensive brandies are the usual offerings, Sheraton reported.

After this and other mentions, I was sharply conscious of the ruse when I saw it. And then what do you know, a few years later I fell for it, bad. Surveying a cluster of the new restaurants in Las Vegas I was with a group at a high-end steakhouse (the most expensive restaurant, it turned out, for a certain class of meal, within its well known recent hotel-casino complex) and lo and behold, crab-appetizer-no-price. Smoothly done, after the diners had a glass of wine and were convivial and disarmed. Turned out $110 or so per serving (for the two that we ordered for the table).

We could hardly blame the restaurant (especially knowing the trick). Also though, obviously a classy operation displaying respect for its customers is not where you will see this gambit.

-- Max

] >I find it strange that asking the customer how they want their meat ] >cooked applies only to beef. I've never been asked how I wanted my lamb ] >cooked, or pork or venison for that matter. Why is beef different? ] ] A good restaurant asks you how you want any meat, unless it is a predetermined ] 'doneness', as in baked, stewed etc. ]

Yes of course! And don't forget about dark meat birds like duck and pigeon.

] I always order one grade less done than I want it in any place unfamiliar to me ] - medium rare too often results in something without any detectable pink in the ] middle. ]

Good tip indeed. Except, I always want it _really_ rare, so there is no level less cooked for me! :)

] I will say that I once sent back two consecutive attempts at rare lamb and ] ended up eating nothing in disgust. They got zero tip that night from a table ] of 6. ]

I spent some time at the Bell Inn in Hurley-on-Thames, (or is it Henley?) and was never able to get a rare portion. (The french have a saying about the english and meat: they kill it twice, once to butcher, again when cooking :)) Finally for some lamb, I ordered it _raw_. I told them I just wanted it warmed frm the refrigerator. The lamb was medium rare, about as close as they ever got!

] IMHO Dale should not have tipped at all, given the level of service he ] received.

Or tip a penny. That'll get their attention.

The wine issues I find (well all the rest too) inexcusable. I would never accept the substitution of a 99 St Em for a 00, and as for the Beaucastel business, hmm, my hackles are rising...

-E

] Bill Spohn wrote: ] ] >>I find it strange that asking the customer how they want their meat ] >>cooked applies only to beef. I've never been asked how I wanted my lamb ] >>cooked, or pork or venison for that matter. Why is beef different? ] > ] > ] > A good restaurant asks you how you want any meat, unless it is a predetermined ] > 'doneness', as in baked, stewed etc. ] >

] ] Really? Not in my experience. Maybe it's an American thing, although, ] thinking back to my most recent visit (to New York, late last year) I ] don't remember being asked at The Gramercy Tavern, Ouest, Oceana (but ] fish doean't count), DB Bistro Moderne (Foie Gras Burger probably ] doesn't count either) Oh, well, perhaps not a good sample. ]

Brian, of course fish counts. How about tuna, or even wild salmon?

BTW Bill is canadian.

-E

In most restaurants that I've been in recently I've been asked about my prefreence on lamb and venison. I think that the old taboo on undercooked pork still exists in the USA so it doesn't surprise me that I'm not asked about the doneness level of pork.

I heard the same thing but it seemed to me that it was usually followed by a disclamier that if you order the steak any more done than "medium" that the chef won't vouch for it's palatability. I've also heard it used in reference to high grade tuna, swordfish and salmon.

I think it's more of a reference point for the quality of the food. If you forewarn someone that the steak will be tough or dry if it's cooked past a certain point then they can't complain about it afterwards if it doesn't meet their expectations. Bi!!

I can't believe that Gramercy Tavern or Ouest wouldn't ask how >it might be possible that the wine menu starts with the lists

I th>I would never

Well, Emery, here you and I will have to differ. I've found the vast majority of 2000 Bordeaux to be closing down right now, while the lighter '99 vintage is drinking well. I'd clearly prefer the vast majority of 2000s to their 1999 counterparts for my cellar, but in a restaurant where there is only maybe 30 minutes for decanting I went with the 1999 (and yes Ian I did comment on the switch, but accepted for reasons stated- it was actually quite inexpensive for a restaurant 375).

I have emailed my story (actually linked to a thread on the Garr wine board, where I also posted) to the parent company, we'll see what happens. Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

Gotta agree with Bill. Good restaurants (that's not an oxymoron in America either) ask how the customer prefers their meat cooked. Beef, venison, lamb--definitely!, pork, tuna, salmon, etc.

I generally don't expect to be asked on poultry--although duck can be atrocious if you don't specify--nor on white fishes.

Foie gras burger? I've got to hear more about that!

Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" "Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights" Both from Smithsonian Books

If the issue is service, complain to the maitre'd. If the issue is food, don't penalize the waitperson, but complain to the maitre'd.

I've found that a willingness to explain your dissatisfaction clearly and promptly will usually result in an adjustment in performance immediately and most houses will also comp a desert or more.

Had an atrocious experience two years ago at a premium hotel/restaurant here in Colorado Springs. Friends spent the weekend with them for an anniversary. Party of six for dinner on Saturday. Seated, then moved to another table because "this one's reserved". Moved again when seated at the kitchen door.

Wines ordered, but wine glasses removed prior to serving. Courses missed from the prix fixe tasting menu. Other courses poorly served or out of sequence. etc. etc. etc. A total disaster.

We pointed out the issues to the maitre'd and in short order we were told there would be no charge for the table. Dinner for six, including wines, desert, coffee all comped. Tab was close to $800 and the absorbed it with gracious apologies.

That's the sort of outcome that assures a customer will return after an unfortunate evening.

Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" "Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights" Both from Smithsonian Books

][] ] In article , Emery Davis ] writes: ] ] >I would never ] >accept the substitution of a 99 St Em for a 00, ] ] Well, Emery, here you and I will have to differ. I've found the vast majority ] of 2000 Bordeaux to be closing down right now, while the lighter '99 vintage is ] drinking well. I'd clearly prefer the vast majority of 2000s to their 1999 ] counterparts for my cellar, but in a restaurant where there is only maybe 30 ] minutes for decanting I went with the 1999 (and yes Ian I did comment on the ] switch, but accepted for reasons stated- it was actually quite inexpensive for ] a restaurant 375). ]

I understand your reasoning. And I know you have a softer spot (get it?) for '99 than I have. But my issue was that a patently inferior vintage was substituted at the same price.

-E

"Ed Rasimus" wrote

IMO, part of the waiter's job is to make sure your total dining experience is a pleasurable one. At least that's who gets the credit (I usually tip well over 20%, and occasionally, as high as 30%). He is the one who should also take the blame when things don't go well. He should ask how everything is, and if there is a problem, he should either 1) take care of it immediately, or 2) bring the maitre'd over to the table. I do agree that if somebody doesn't like the food and *doesn't* complain about it, or does not give the waiter the chance to "fix it," then they should not penalize him blindly for a non-service issue.

If the maitre'd is unable (or unwilling) to make amends, then I believe fault is out of the waiter's hands, and if he seems genuinely apologetic and tried his best, I will then tip at 15%, but never return to the establishment again. One exception was at the Luxor Hotel in Vegas. There, I followed up with a letter to management. By the time I had written, they had already fired that maitre'd (ours wasn't the only bad incident), offering us two dinners (one each at two of their restaurants) and a 5-night stay on them. Now *that* was making amends!!

A couple Napa stops, but

Dale, I visited them last week and was also impressed. I thought Robert Hall was pretty good, too. I also liked Garretson, but knowing your tastes you'd probably find their wines a little over the top .

Dean

A friend spent a couple of weeks in Ireland once, trying to get a rack of lamb done rare. The best he managed was a beraly detectable pinkness, he said, and that only after sending the first one back after ordering it 'blood rare' and getting it medium.

He couldn't figure out why they had this problem with lamb when all around him he saw great slabs of rare beef being served. But then who can figure out the Irish?? ;-)

Arghh! As a foie hound, dressing foie gras up in fancy sauces or putting it into things like burgers, where the exquisite flavour and texture is subsumed in the overall burger is apostacy.

When one lady told me about her plans to make beef burgers with foie gras on top, I told her that anyone that would eat such a thing would probably not know the difference if she substituted sauteed Spam, and then she could bring the foie gras over to my place for proper enjoyment!

Foie gras, simply seared with coarse salt - it doesn't get much better than that. I have even been known to trade lobster in a lobster and FG dish to another diner, for his foie gras (anyone that would take me up on such an offer clearly isn't a true aficionado of FG)

I was willing to forgive his inadvertent insult in thinking me American......

Do the rest of you send back any wine that appears at your table already opened? I do - and one time when I tasted it, the wine in the bottle was clearly not what it was supposed to be. Another way of ripping of the customer.

not make the reservation if there is going to be someone smoking next>to me

Don't you love the restaurants that have the non-smoking section right beside the smoking section - and you always get the table right at the dividing line? (I'm not a rabid anti-smoker - in fact I smoke cigars and pipe, but not when I am out in public. I don't want to spoil anyone's meal any more than I want my nice wine tainted by the reek of cheap - well OK, any cigarettes. If it is a cheap cigar, tant pis!)

Hmm, I avoid the problem by specifying when I order: "I'll have the xxxx medium rare, please." If you're expecting to specify your preference, then why are you waiting for them to ask?

But I agree that if you don't specify, then there's no excuse for them not asking.

Larry Coon University of California